Random Discussion About Chris' Daily Blog

Discussion in 'Developer Depot' started by Chris, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Jaanelle DeJure

    Jaanelle DeJure Avatar

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  2. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    User Friendliness;
    While seeming like a nice idea in principle, I'm not so sure I want anymore finger dancing "added". This sort of hallmarks things to come, where the high-end technocrat players over-run the many other players. Yet it also showcases the need of separation between high-end user desires and one that has a much more "Dallas Deck" (user friendly) accommodation of convenience and ease of play demands.

    This all points to something colossal within the gaming industry which happened during the ground breaking time of UO, where many more people went out and purchased PC's because of the explosion of online gaming. I bought 2 additional PCs immediately that year as an example, because of their user friendliness and my wishes for the rest of my younger family to become involved.

    I think we have come to another point in our game, where it's the technocrats who are posting more opinions and demands because of their ability to be more technically involved and current within their information gathering desires. Having more playability options is a strong point within our game, yet when we think of more options for the high-end technocrat player, it chips away at user friendly side with each technocratic demand for better combat design. I don't see this as a bad thing, yet I do view it as something which points much more closely to the need of development attention from a more user friendly approach to combat in separate form, morphed from the other. Our first card combat design concerns came under attack because it was fully random, which through testing by our developers, and one known as @dallas , became necessary to have developed the locked card deck.

    I believe we are approaching a time when we need to re-examine our user friendliness, as this new desire from the mid-range technocrat to cause locked cards to become more competitive rises. With each rise in the competitiveness of locked cards, we inch further away from the purpose of why the locked cards are here in the first place.

    [​IMG]
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  3. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    I thought I *was* the wiki. lol
     
  4. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Just because it's there doesn't mean that you have to use it.

    [edit] I probably wouldn't normally use it either. Just sometimes, like when I run out of Aimed Shot and Rapid Fire, I would like to have something else to do besides running around trying not to get hit.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  5. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    Thats what charged attack is for. =)

    IF they add the charged glyph concept, I'd switch to it full-time. IF they add the combo glyph, that would be even better. Right now, I don't think its really competitive for PvE. Since you can unload quickly, it might be more useful to PvP, but I don't care about that aspect.
     
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  6. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    It's all in needed balancing issues to me :)
    I agree with the proposal, yet with every finger demand, the balances become offset. I think it would be a good thing and with the left mouse button, yet when we do things like this, we are at the point of where there does need a separation between user friendly and the technocratic ways of play.

    When we had nothing but random deck, there was a need for the locked deck, which provided separation between what was more advantageous and that which was more finger friendly. I place this as a midpoint issue, where I believe it belongs in the more advanced side. In stating all of this, I only point to where balance is needed for the more finger friendly in needed play style design, because what is convenient to the less finger challenged, often places further demand on the player's finger abilities to play the game.

    Balance is not always about tech skill abilities, but it's also about accommodation between two separate motives within the design proses. With each new step within our dancing of our fingers, there will always be those who enjoy the more simple of dance steps whether by appeal or by physical demand. This is why I chose the early Wing Commander pic, a game that was of great success, because it was an extremely finger friendly game when compared with our current revival in online PC games where the console game has become the ruler.

    There are those who have sent me messages in thanks for having brought up the carpal tunnel issue many times before. While I am a victim of this, I am on the high end of being able to do more than the average sufferer. Where that comes from are more demands placed on the fingers, the way it strikes is sudden when you wake up one day and can't hold a breakfast plate in your hand while the plate hits the floor. If we do not provide for such users, then we are only adding to the dangers that our game could inflict on any random user. Yet if we continue to provide a separation between the advanced and finger friendly ways of play, then our game has no guilt of alluring anyone to become a victim of carpal tunnel, while also providing a way of play for those of other forms of finger ailments such as arthritis. We currently have a broad audience and it's the older who have the larger $ to fund the game, so I just take this as a larger issue which always needs the reminder. Yet still too, I will also point out that the same user or finger friendliness of our game, also accommodates players from the much younger children being able to play here.

    [​IMG]

    My Son was a UO and Wing Commander kid, and now he's 32 ;)
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  7. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    If you read this post he talks about it. It is still a bit of a mystery but exciting news to imagine. See below what he says

    Problem:

    40% of the players hate the deck system. 40% of the players love the deck system. More people listed it as their favorite feature than listed it as their least favorite in my last poll. We can’t remove something that was the most commonly named element as their favorite game feature. There should be no reason a player should demand that a system be removed purely for sake of removing it. The real issue is that many players don’t like it but feel compelled to use it because there is no other way to be competitive with those that do due to execution speeds.

    So it is my belief the real issue is we need to find a way to make locked combat more compelling and more competitive. While that won’t make everyone happy, we’ll never make everyone happy and my best guess is that this is the real issue for 90% of those unhappy about the random deck system.

    Solution:

    Move locked skills to use a “Heat” system instead of a single, hard global cooldown.

    Each skill has a total cooldown pool based on the number available instance of that skill (5 for players with 80+ skill) and that pool fills up by the cooldown amount on each use. The more full the pool, the more focus the skill costs. The cooldown pool still empties out at a rate that will increase based on how full it is.

    That’s the short version.

    So the appearance to the player is you can use locked skills repeatedly without waiting on cooldowns. Each use fills up the cooldown amount on the skill a bit more. The more full it is, the more of a focus penalty there is but also the faster the cooldown empties out.

    So the math will fluctuate but the rough example.


    Atos has his Thrust skill to 100. That means I have all 5 runes unlocked.

    The cool down is 5 seconds so the total cooldown pool is 5 runes x 5 seconds = 25 seconds.

    Using the skill once adds 5 seconds to the pool, cost 11 focus, and fills up the icon cool down circle to 1/5th full.

    That 1/5th of the circle pie slice starts shrinking and will be gone in 5 seconds.

    Alternatively, I could use the skill again as soon as the one second global cooldown and be up to around 9 seconds of time the pool (5+5 seconds minus 1 second passed since the first use).

    Since there was some time in meter when I used the second Thrust I would pay a small focus penalty.

    I could then immediately use it again and be up to around 13 seconds (9+5-1 second passed) and pay a bit more of a focus penalty.

    Use it again and up to 17-ish seconds and the focus penalty keeps climbing. We can also give an audio clue that changes to help make it clear when skills are getting over used so players don’t have to take their eyes off combat.

    I could use it again, up to 21 seconds out of the 25 second pool which means I won’t be able to use it a 6th time without waiting a second. Instead I decide to chill for a bit and let the cooldown empty out a bit to let the pool empty out completely.

    If you have the skill to 50 and only had 4 runes it would change the above calculations a bit in that you would have a smaller total pool and only be able to use the skill 4 times before it was full. Same would be true if you had an 80 skill and 5 runes but used one of the runes in a random deck. Also, you could do something like use 4 of them for random portion and leave 1 rune to be locked and in that case it would behave identical to how it does now.

    To be clear, this is a change to how locked runes work. You will also still be able to use these in hybrid decks and even use skills in both the random deck and also as a locked rune BUT putting runes in the random deck removes that many from the cool down pool and reduces how fast you can reuse the locked one.

    The closest comparison I have to this style system is a “Heat” system that you see in a shooter or MechWarrior. You can push it and run hot but with some extra costs but it puts that choice in the player’s hands. While a focus penalty is desirable, there are times when you just want to do 5 Coup De Grace attacks or 5 healing touches in a row without taking a break and you don’t care how much focus it costs.

    Decisions remaining:

    Math for the focus penalty? How much of a penalty will make or break this system for many. My current guess for what feels fair is something in the neighborhood of the percent full is the percent penalty. So if you use it once, it is at 20% full but each second is 4% of the bar (20%/5 seconds or 100%/25) so really when the next one goes off it will be at about 16% full and have a 16% focus penalty. Again, this will need lots of QA testing feedback. I’m a fan of curves so this might less punishing at the low end and more punishing as you get closer to the top.

    Does the cool down pool get 1 second per second or does it increase depending on how full it is? If it is just 1 second per second then you’re not really using it any faster than before and instead just just lets you do 4 extra before you’re blocked and back to one execution per cooldown length. The magic of the deck system is each card has its own cooldown so really in the best case it is cooling down by 5 seconds (1 per card used) per actual second. Giving that same advantage to the “skill heat” system would actually result in the locked system being significantly faster than even the deck system in terms of cast speeds. It might work but at the very least, the cool down times would have to be doubled to match the current cooldowns of the deck system. Still some thought and testing here but the system will almost certainly recover cooldown timers faster than 1 second to 1 second once it gets closer to full.

    Also considering another additional change that will be the equivalent of stacking through pressing and holding a skill to charge it and then have it execute on release. Result would basically match stacking. Decks would still have significant advantages since they can build multiple stacks to get ready to kick off combat. Still thinking through the implications of this one...
     
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  8. TeddyMIT

    TeddyMIT Avatar

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    @Chris
    I suggest, about offhand attack...
    It can quickly allow multiple attacks.
    However, after using it gives great cool down.
     
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  9. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    Offhand attack shouldn't be a glyph, it should be an ongoing part of attacking while holding two weapons. It should be automatic, just as using a shield should automatically block sometimes.

    Glyphs can enhance it, but it makes no sense to just be holding this weapon most of the time, waiting for the skill to pop up that lets you use it.
     
  10. Paggy Holisy

    Paggy Holisy Avatar

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    Just like UO using 7 GM to limit and also make a differen character. How about trying a system that player can set up the 1 Major Skill tree, and when you set it the skills in Major skill tree will not decay. It's keep character focus on his path. Or just use limit point like 700 or other can set never decay.
     
  11. Mac2

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    With 7 gmes there is not much you can do. As well, consider that skills go beyond 100.
     
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  12. Paul Lopes

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    我玩sota是為了悠閒,不像別的遊戲佔領我其他時間!但R42的經驗值懲罰機制,嚴重影響我悠閒時間。使我要不斷練功,這樣有違我玩遊戲的原則!
     
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  13. Paul Lopes

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    高端的打怪玩家覺得自己是智障 , 練太多還被警告 , 生產玩家覺得為什麼都沒人買我做的裝備 , 一定是裝備太好做 礦太好挖

    然後官方就天真的把礦怪改強 讓礦變難挖 , 半年後 AGAIN , 還是沒人買你裝備 , 但是並不是礦太好挖 , 而是SOTA大家都自己做裝備為什麼要跟你買 ?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  14. Paggy Holisy

    Paggy Holisy Avatar

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    I mean let player choice his skill "tree" not decay. (maybe 2-3 tree)
    But you still can learn other skills.

    Skills tree example: Blade tree = all blade skills, Air tree = all air skills
     
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  15. Twiggi Fizzlesticks

    Twiggi Fizzlesticks Avatar

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    I had just made a similar suggestion on another post. Not to eliminate decay, but to select one school with decay at a fraction less than others. For magic schools the opposing school could have more decay. you can perhaps have a secodary specialization with a decay in between the main one other skills
     
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  16. Paul Lopes

    Paul Lopes Avatar

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    這樣子就可以達到他所想要的三個目的~遊戲平衡/抑制玩家成長速度/防止玩家SOLO 這才是最根本的方式拿個ˊ例子做比較以前的閃電術和連鎖閃電傷害比現在略高一點暈眩率超高還可以連續暈眩官方為了防止這問題所以出現了暈眩抗性的設計其實這樣就夠了結果後面又弱化傷害又減半暈眩率看起來風系魔法還是一樣很多人練但是控場效果早就大不如前了冰系和火系也是類似的情況結果最後就是土系魔法莫名其妙都沒腰斬然後重甲戰士用的比法師更得心應手達到他所謂的平衡??超級怪的
     
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  17. Paul Lopes

    Paul Lopes Avatar

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    我想真正好的設計應該是每一系都有各自的強勢特色 , 強到玩家選起來很猶豫 , 都很好 不知道選哪個 , 但是因為SOTA沒有限制總量 , 所以當然最強 = 什麼都練

    像現在這樣 , 哪個好哪個很多人用就砍哪個 , 砍到最後都快一樣爛 , 用哪個都差不多

    這個坑是官方自己挖的 , 因為她原本設計就沒有想過要限制玩家 , 那當然無限制的設計就帶來無限制的慾望 , 我相信官方初始設計的概念是非常棒的 , 絕對的自由

    但是現在的情況已經有點好像失控了 , 自由的練等的後果反而讓官方覺得玩家太強 (說到底就是官方沒有準備那麼多內容給你玩 , 只好被迫組止你玩)

    自由選擇的後果就是大家都還是往"最強路線"靠攏 , 因為總有更好的選擇 , 這是根本上無法違背的人性 , 始終貫徹自己真愛而能無視強弱的玩家只是少數而以

    而官方沒想到的是這個"最強路線"其實正是自己打造的 , 因為每個系的原有的吸引人的特色都被認定"太強" , 最終都砍到殘廢 , 結果就是現在無止盡的挖東牆補西牆...
     
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  18. TeddyMIT

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    雖然你幫我們貼上來我很高興...
    但是我希望誰講的話誰自己發上來
    不要藉由他人之手
    不然官方永遠以為我們華人玩家只是少數一環
     
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  19. Paul Lopes

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    首先限制GM數量或是修練數量就違背官方募資時的計劃書了再來遊戲主打是無上限雖然現在我們知道有200等級的極限但事實上並非如此會在往後開放這樣所謂的限制數量等於多少就是問號最後目前造成這問題的最根本原因是官方過於弱化玩家技能/魔法,為了達到他所謂的遊戲平衡而過度強化怪物,為了達到他所謂的壓抑玩家成長速度事實上最簡單的方式就是讓每個技能魔法恢復他原有的特色然後多樣化怪物的攻擊方式和組成
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
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  20. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator SOTA Developer

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    Just to be clear, google translate sucks, also while there is a number of 200 right now for skill caps, it isn't really hard. I just left it there because I knew no one could reach it. As for the other comments, we still consider the game in development and it definitely isn't "finished" so balance and nerfing will continue for at least a while longer.