Realistic Recipes or not?

Hi,

I was playing around with some recipes for Crafting and was quite surprised about the recipes for a Chainmail.
I Understand that some compromises have to be made for balancing or mechanics-reasons, but even then it Looks somehow wrong to me.

I accept that the concept-art Shows a chain-mail with leather. However, even then you dont Need charcoal for it, not for the final assembly. Real Chainmail would never ever have leather worked directly into the chain-mail. There qould be a gambeson beneath the chain, the chain itself, and then there might be some additional clothing, including leather or not, and within an army or battle the tunic above everything, to Show the Color of your army within the battle.

So my question is: Is there anyone interested in that Kind of Feedback? If yes, I will continue to give that, if not, I shut up

Sorry for the strange Kind of lower- and uppercase... that darn german spelling-tool dont like it when I write in english...... and does strange things sometimes.

Cheers,
Konradin

 

From the way I look at it it looks resonable.


Coal to heat up the forge.
And when it comes to the leather straps it all depends on what time period and where the chainmail where manufactured. It's just straps what might have been used at the end of the sleeves for example. If it would have been large quantity of leather I would have understand your concern.

 

Well, no concern at all. I dont try to convince someone. I am just asking: What is the design-decision here?

Shall it be Fantasy/LARP-Style, or Re-Enactment-Style?

And no, it does NOT depend on the time the chain is manufactured. But even this is not important here.

If you look at the Chain when its equiped by the char, it Shows large Areas of leather on the waist, In other words, some parts of the chain are replaced with leather-armor, which makes no sense at all, it just Looks better

And the Recipe for the chain Needs one charcoal as well, which makes no sense as well, even if you want to have a Fantasy-style-armor, because its "cold-smithed". You Need charcoal to make the wire, thats it.

And why it is not important which time: The Chain-Mail as such, not the gloves and other parts, are usually made from the rings only. It is common that there were small and tiniy leather-straps used to tighten the end of the arms, so it will not move down your arm if you raise your sword, leaving you unprotected there, but this is not part of the chain-mail as such and it would make sense to use more Sheets of iron-chains instead, and no coal and maybe one leather-strap to reflect this. The Chain helmet is no chain-helmet, because the "chain-helmet" is a bonnet, and a helmet, usually a simple helmet with a nose-protection, was worn on top of that, or the chain was attached to the helmet, to protect the neck.

A Video from one of our "Group-member" may Show how medieval-armors may have looked like (well, they mix up timelines, but in fact, those armors are darn Close to what was used).

Have fun watching

 

That Video should not be on top.... but I cant edit the post to move it down... sorry.....

 

I didn't play with crafting very much but if what I'm understanding is right.. they're seriously requiring charcoal AFTER the wire is already made? Yeah I agree that's just wrong.

Once you have the wire.. the wire is then wrapped around a rod and then cut into links. The links are then put together (rather painstakingly I might add).. probably wish pliers.. there's a lot of opening and closing of individual links.. but there's no heat / coal required. Otherwise I'm sure I would've burnt down my house when I built my chain shirt a few years back... lot of opening and closing links...

 

I found some of the recipes ridicules. Tree bark to make tread... who knew!
That's the trouble with the system that is in place. Throw a bunch of mats on the table, hammer at it & see what pops out. Have to have mats that are used up so they can have something to control market value, so throw anything in there, I'm just glad we're not using cow dung to make thread. I realize it's early but I am wondering how it will work since the current recipe book was an after thought.

 

It might be a little unfair to call it an after thought.. more rather something that wasn't a high priority. Or maybe it was an after thought but I believe similar ideas were suggested quite some time ago so who's to say really? In any case I was surprised to see bark but thread? really? I can see it used for other things but I never would have guessed thread.

 

I remember either Darkstarr or Lum said somewhere they initially didn't plan for it or more precise, planed to not have it but soon realized not having it would be far to burdensome. Sorry, can't remember where I read that right now.

Yep, 3 flax & 1 tree bark makes thread in New Brittania

*edit*
I was close
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/release-2-instructions.6104/

• 
  Recipe Log: We had originally planned to put crafting in R2 without a recipe log but quickly discovered how amazingly not fun that was. Discovery is great but not having any record of that discovery is just punishing. So we got in a recipe book that will track your recipes.

 

Hmm well ok.. I know players have talked about it. Obviously we have no clue what's actually planned unless they say so or not.

That recipe sounds more like the bark is a tool or something. Flax and tree bark huh. It seems odd but I guess we'd have to research it to know if that makes any sense or not. I've no clue how to make thread from flax.

 

The flax is first retted, putting it in water, then scutched, removing the materials from the fibers, which involves a blade, then hackled, which involves combing it, and then its put in the spinning wheel... and then is thread, ready to be used.

 

Yep, I agree. Some of those recipes made no sense at all, I never guessed "tree bark" to make thread. I was trying everything to make spindles out of wood with carpentry.

And Poles were another story, I would have never guessed to use the milling table to make poles, carpentry was my first choice.

I guess some people Love puzzles, I don't, I have no patients. Let me read it in a book or ask a GM carpenter, I hate stumbling over things. Give me something I can learn, not stumble across by accident.

 

Thanks.. actually I looked it up just a few minutes ago. Absolutely nothing to do with tree bark.. I might be a little disappointed that I looked it up. I'm not sure I like knowing now that process takes several weeks.. including 2 stages of drying out in the sun for some of those weeks.

 

Or put in a bog to soak for two weeks. Yea, if it were anywhere near realistic, there would be several stages to go through before you went to the spinning table, and you would need some more tools The "flax fiber" might be the already processed fiber though.

I don't know what the tree bark would have to do with it, unless its something to spool the thread around. But you don't really need to spool the thread around anything, just bundle it.

 

You can make string, rope and more out of tree bark. Mixing flax and bark thought?

(Edit, quoted wrong person).

 

yeah I know tree bark can be used in that kind of way but as you say.. flax and bark?? That just seems really odd. Besides you'd need a particular kind of bark don't you? I can't imagine just any ol' bark would be suitable.

 

But there is also an innate problem in making things more realistic. That is that there is undoubtedly several different methods for making certain items. For instance, though the tanning recipes in the game don't make the most logical sense, tree bark, urine, lye and bird dung were extensively used in the process in the middle ages. All of them used in the process but the first 2 perform the same function as do the last 2 for a different function... they're interchangeable. So would we have to buy certain items or would we see leather workers constantly wandering around statues in town scraping them clean of dung? How does the process work? It's not as simple as saying "Make it realistic" and the choices involved mean that you either have to make it more wide ranging or risk cheesing someone off because they think tanning is done with tree bark and not cow urine.

As another example, back to the chainmail example. Why does Brittania have to follow western medieval technique? Kusari garments in Japan often had chain links with leather or textile. It may be that coal is not necessary to make the garment still, but there are many examples in the world where leather would make perfect sense.

But I did make a thread on Friday, I think, calling out the the crafting system simply wasn't intuitive. It's all well and good for someone who has more knowledge of a subject than the average person. My guess is that the devs are not making a game for hardcore players only. And even if they are, it's totally ridiculous to expect people to figure out even some of the basic material recipes (like the string). OK, if they're going for realism, then perhaps it needs an overhaul in the realism department. But if they want a system that is approachable and user friendly, they've got a bit of a walk to take.

 

I don't anyone's asking for hyper realism.. (well not in this thread anyway ) but something that is completely nonsensical isn't good either.

For my part on the chain example.. you'll note I didn't even touch on incorporating leather but the continued use of coal is pretty ridiculous.

Incidentally.. yes they want this kind of feedback too.

Now if you really want an example of some of the more hardcore suggestions that didn't go in.. some people wanted mini-games and actually hammering steel and such.

It's funny you should bring up some of the particulars of medieval dying as there was a discussion on medieval techniques several months back.

 

the thread is spun around a spool - as is yarn or anything coming off of a spinning wheel before being rewound into a ball. the spool is rather important, really - I just figured it wouldn't be a bare piece of tree bark.

I can see taking the tree bark to carpentry with a carving knife to make the spool, THEN take the spool over to the textile table to wrap your finished thread around it... but not raw bark... will ruin mah threading!

And this moves on to all sorts of things...

• how is the shuttle for the loom refilled with thread (I'd expect that to actually be crafted as well)
• I see the chisel, but for the life of me cannot carve anything! spent two hours with all sorts of combo between different tables and no carving, nada... perhaps later can make fancy door panels to customize a cabinet? will we be able to do things like that?
• So I throw together some cloth and siccors, and BAM! I got a hoodie! But, uhm... don't I need thread for that? o.0 yeah, that one took me about 3 hours to discover.
• Sewing takes siccors, needle, thread and cloth - that's the basics and I think missed in the tailoring craft here
• Even more basic, bandages - maybe don't even need the siccors, just rip fabric? (this will be a bare necessity and possible requirement for healing, eh?)
• Let's take the formula of raw resources to raw materials to basic items to complex items (example, chain mail)
  • Chain mail anything should be:
    • iron ore + coal to ingot
    • smelt ingot to wire
    • log to board to pole
    • wrap wire around pole (need new tool: wire cutters)
    • cut wire rings, weave chain mail (can allow for differing complexities in the type of mail done, double layer, straight row to 5-ring patterns, etc)
    • advanced chain mail would mean lining the chain with very soft type of doe leather (I've made a chain-bikini that way - more comfortable with doe lining!) and should be very complex combination:
      • basic chain mail shirt
      • advanced doe-skin shirt
        • would need thread as a minimum material to make the shirt
        • could take it further with silk thread or waxed thread
        • no buttons, that would be painful under chain mail
      • combine chain mail tunic with doe-skin shirt
        • would need a heavy-duty thread for this, perhaps triple-thick silk thread?
      • possibly trim with exceptional cloth
      • would be a very complex, advanced recipe which would result in a very expensive chain mail shirt!

considering game resources, programming, and the rudimentary process of crafting with this FIRST TIME INTRODUCTION of the SotA crafting system - I think its been done rather well. Interesting (never would have thought) combinations, but still pretty damned good.

*edit*
I'm happy to see us using blooms for smelting - it makes perfect sense for the period - I believe we need more resources to make true steel though. Coal & iron make for very basic pig-iron which is what we've been working with so far. Making steel takes a bit more time and alloy.

 

It depends upon the type of thread being spun and the purpose of that thread.

In spinning, you use a spool. You can use a smooth stick or something - but it makes the spinning process MUCH easier to have your spun out threads and yarns on a receiving spool. Thin threads stay on the spool until used up, then the spool is reused. Thicker yarns are typically removed from the spool and wound into skeins or balls for use.

 

Ooooh, what have I done?

Well, I absolutely disagree that a chain-Bikini would be in any way more realistic than what we have
It would also not make sense to make crafting more complicated. the steps to the Chainmail, and the Tools, are ok. You could do more here, but hey, does that make sense then?

The Question still is: Realistic or Fantasy-Style?

And that one Needs to be decided by the devs, if not already done.

For the game it would make more Sense to separate different Chainmale-Qualities by the three different subtypes of Chain-Rings used.

1. Simple, open Ring -> worst protection, easy to maintain, Needs lot of maintenance. No Protection against ranged Weapons of Type Bow or Crossbow)
2. riveted -> good protection, different methods. Good protection against Arrows and Bolts
3. Roman male -> small rings, riveted and closed rings combined. Almost perfect protection against arrows and very good against Bolts

The 6mm Roman Male is something I would always prefer, even a plate provides less protection. However, it was highly uncommon after the Roman Imperium died, even if it was seen in the graves of Kings around 800. Of course you have always variants of chain-mails, epsecially the size of the rings and the way they are combined. That will make them heavy or lightweighted, and safe... or not.

Advanced Chain would not be the combination with leather. Every Peace of Leather within a chain weakens the chain as such, so I would not call that "advanced". If we talk about Fantasy-style, ok, but do we?