Request for assistance

Discussion in 'The College of Arms' started by Karrolanth, Apr 6, 2014.

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  1. NirAntae

    NirAntae Avatar

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    Perhaps "wild rose" and "tea rose"(or "long stemmed") would be better than "heraldic" and "natural".
     
  2. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    @NirAntae,

    Or "dog rose", which is what the most common form of wild rose in Europe is called.

    I was just offering my observations, anyway. I've seen heraldry texts from the 19th c and 20th c that distinguish the "heraldic" rose from the "natural" rose, so the modern use of those terms seems common. I'm just not quite sure people in the Middle Ages would have appreciated the difference.
     
  3. Ronan

    Ronan Avatar

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    Traditional and Modern
     
  4. Adiun Tesserande

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    Traditional and apothecary's, perhaps? Redfish has a good point here. I happen to really like the apothecary's rose, which if I remember correctly is believed to be the oldest of all roses.
     
  5. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    I just found out the Tudor rose is called a "double rose", which should have been easy enough to know, since there's a Wikipedia article on it. See here. The "double rose" is also supposedly a representation of Rosa gallica, which is the apothecary rose that Adiun is speaking of, and is also a cultivated rose. From here : "Lancaster's Red Rose (also known as Apothecary's Rose, Old Red Damask and Rose of Provins) is an official variety and is possibly the first cultivated rose."

    I've been trying to find a naming convention in heraldry to use as a precedent, other than "natural rose", but so far I can't find one.

    I think the best convention would probably be not to distinguish the wild rose, and just distinguish the fully cultivated rose. But you can't call it "cultivated," because the double rose is cultivated. Maybe call it "full rose," with the meaning of "fully cultivated." "Full rose" would be an analogy to "double rose."

    I'm looking up botany terms. This is under the "flower type" category for roses, from a rose breeder,

    * Double/full-bloom
    * Semi-double
    * Single

    Other breeders also distinguish double and semi-double, semi-double would just be a second row of petals, instead of a full-bloom rose.

    http://www.marinrose.org/singleroses.html
    http://www.gardenseeker.com/roses/rose-flower-types.htm

    So you could also distinguish them "semi-double rose" and "double rose", which would line up with how rose breeders term them, rather than use the "double rose" from heraldic blazons.
     
  6. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    I really don't want to get too wrapped around the axle over this.
    Heraldic rose and natural rose is all the detail we really need.

    We could call them rose type 1 and rose type 2 and that would suffice.
     
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  7. Canterbury

    Canterbury Avatar

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    That's a really good looking CoA.
     
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  8. Karrolanth

    Karrolanth Avatar

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    Thank you... I love it! :D

    ...and never expected it to start a debate over what to call a rose... ;)

    *hugs O'Sullivan for recreating her vision*
     
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  9. Adiun Tesserande

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    Karrolanth, we're glad you like it! I happen to think it's quite striking myself, actually. You have quite an eye for this!
     
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