Rich Roleplaying versus All Roles

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stundorn, Jul 18, 2018.

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  1. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    First, i understand that i again argued too much for some or arent able to write my concerns down the way they get constructively discussed.
    I try to do it a little different now and to all who see me and my opinion, complaints and whatnot too aggressive or annoying i just try to adapt again and find solutions for me to have fun, because there are some aspects of SotA i like a lot and i want SotA still be a successfull sandbox MMO.
    I say that because we also still have the SP Players, what i think is a promise from KS and should also be taken serious. I like SP RPG's it's just not the cause i'm here. So sorry if i argue and concentrate only about the MMORPG part.

    Ok. Next thing is, although i'm a "Roleplayer" - you now this crazy people wasting time talking swollen speach, decorating, caring for their outfit more than the numbers it provides and background story, immersion and what not this thread is about the gamemechanically view on playing "roles", where you pick a role to play in the world like a Healer, a Tamer, a Mage, a Crafter of one specific profession...

    So @Lord British, we have all these roles and still new players come in and say things like i want to be an Earth Magic Tank or an Air Magic Archer or a non Magic Melee or pure Archmage or whatever.

    The only restriction we have is the Deck what limits us fulfilling any role we want to fulfill.
    In other words we can be all roles at any time by switching the deck , just not at the same time.
    Time spent playing (getting xp) is the only factor what limits us in making more Builds that fit these Roles.
    Crafting Profession are either not separated, you can become a Master Crafter in all professions including harvesting , refining and producing. No limits .

    For minnaxing and making chars who are able to be highly self sustainable in all aspects of the game and fill in the best role for this scene or Situation it's great.
    I try to write that completely without any personal opinion .
    I totally accept that there are players who like that the most about SotA.

    I just ask myself if this then isn't anti "Roleplay" and also anti MMORPG in sense of pick a role in the world and interact with other Roles.
    Ok we have selective MP, and i dont think this is a problem.
    But to have the online version like the offline version, where it makes totally sense to have access to all trees and skills it imo makes completely no sense to have that for online modes, at least imo.
    I dont want take SPO or FMO away.
    I think of these 2 online modes as a private mode you choose sometimes, because you just want to be alone and dont get disturbed , even by friends (SPO) and a coop Mode (FMO), but these should be not seen separated from the MMORPG mode.
    And the purpose of an MMORPG imo is that players need to interact and need each other here and there, especially in a RPG sandbox what is about "roles" and claims to be a Rich Roleplaying Game.

    Do you think different?

    Imo this is not an option, to do or not to do. If there are players able to fill in all roles or even just a couple of roles and become that much self sustainable it takes the purpose of MMORPG away.

    iirc you wanted and did that for Tabula Rasa too. I really liked this Game, but i allways was a little bit disappointed that you can switch classes by going back in your specialisation and choose another tree.
    But it was restricted somehow and you couldnt do in on the fly like we can in SotA.

    I think this freedom takes a lot away from "Role"playing and i for myself (as a long time roleplayer, started with pen and paper 33 years ago) have still the problem to really identify with my character and to only care for one specific role makes you weak in almost all aspects of the game, especially about PvP and i'm the type of Roleplayer who likes PvP and want to RPvP in this game.
    I recently think over to Roleplay a Shapeshifter. No joke, how else i can explain i'm almost "every role" in this game?
    If i do not, i just make a fool of myself and shiit myself in my knees and stay weak.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  2. Black777Lodge

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    I don't see your problem here. You can build your avatar-role as you wish.
    If you wan't to play a specific role in the game, let's say a Water-Mage, then you can focus yourself on this tree, you have
    even the specialication skill to get an expert for this kind of magic. Other skills like restistances or whatever are utility skills
    that are necessary, but not within your specialisation -I realy don't see why this should limit your roleplay?

    The possibility to skill everthing does not mean that you have to leave your role behind. It's a player's choice how to define his role he want's to
    have in the game.

    It is not the freedom of choice to avoid people from roleplaying, it is a deadlocked opinion and a limited perception. But that has nothing to do with
    the game itself.
     
  3. Stryker Sparhawk

    Stryker Sparhawk Bug Hunter

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    Just because you are a grand master water mage doesn't mean you cannot be a grand master sous-vide chef also.

    Is that what is trying to be explained here?
     
  4. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    You cannot see my point, sorry.
     
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  5. Rowell

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    I'm not following what the issue is. Are you saying that you want to limit other players' game play because you're uncomfortable that players can level all their skills?
    Sandbox means players can do anything... be anything. How is pigeon-holing characters into a set class going to improve RP?

    Look at life. Does one's job dictate who they are? Is the Walmart cashier always a Walmart cashier, skilled in the use of cash registers and stacking boxes, and nothing else? Or could they be a college graduate with a masters in English literature, who also plays the guitar like a fiend, and can cook any Asian dish authentically..oh, and also speaks 3 languages fluently?

    Saying "I'm a tank, and that's all that I do and know...because that's my job" is as about as anti-role playing as it gets. Characters are much deeper than what they do; just as with people in real life. Having the flexibility to learn/master multiple skills in a sandbox MMO adds depth and dimension to expand a character beyond the simple "my life is my job, my job is my life" mode of thinking.

    All IMHO.
     
  6. Vero

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    I think what @Black777Lodge means.. is that you can Roleplay your character to the limits you want. (like the water mage example) but that does not mean you can't train other stuff as 'necessary' utility :)

    You can be the sickest water-mage roleplayer but skills/spec totally different schools. (and still be that RP water guy)

    Like, level all mage schools for attunement, but still roleplay your watermage ;)
     
  7. Black777Lodge

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    Aye Veronique, that's what I meant, thanks for the additional explain ;)
     
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  8. Stundorn

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    And that is exactly not the point, because it's not about RP in the way you think of, because i'm a roleplayer but about interdependent roles for groupplay for example and economy and more diverse pvp.

    Sorry you cant see my point here.

    Why UO had caps?

    Why almost all other online RPG games have caps and classes and restrictions?

    Why does SotA not have this and why do you think if it is so cool and all want that have so many players left because of this?

    You think they haven't then where are they?

    What you all seem to not know is RPvP gameplay.
    Ok. No problem.
    Maybe others get what i want to say.

    Edit:
    Just to remember.


    Question:

    Would you agree @Black777Lodge and @Veronique of Lowlands that not skilling fire, death, earth.... to be a pure Watermage for example is Shooting oneself in the knees?
    Would you agree that creating a specialized Avatar and keep it authentic is a self restriction you make yourself weak?

    Would you agree that a Master Bow Crafter is mostly not a Master Sword Smith or a Master Fighter is mostly not a Master Mage ?
    Because becoming a Master need you to fully concentrate a whole life to keep beeing a Master?

    Just curious why all the Roleplaygames have this diversity and keep them separated from each other to create interdependencies and just variance .

    I understand that you dont have any sense for that if you are "just gamers" but not Roleplaygamers.

    What annoys me is the claim "Rich Roleplay Game" when it is completely nit about playing one specific role, but to fill all roles, at least for an online RPG, where interdependencies matter for any interaction, at least for a game with pvp, where diverse builds should be viable, at least for a player driven economy where not everyone should be able to get and make everything on his own.
    Cool for SP, bad for a Sandbox MMORPG
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
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  9. nonaware

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    we see your point. we just do not agree.

    you want a class based game with no vertical progression and only horizontal.

    you want our interactions with the world to be limited by arbitrary rules.

    you think that this is the only way a mmorpg can work.

    you think the game has/is/will fail because it does not conform to your ideals.

    I don't agree with any of your points that you have made repeatedly for what seems like years.

    but I can see your point I just don't agree.
     
  10. Black777Lodge

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    No I do not agree, I can level all my water skills on Level 140 or above and "water" out the hell of any other multispec Avatar in PvP. Have you ever been hit by an Ice Arrow at level 140 plus? With, let's say, 180+ attunment in Water Magic?


    No that's not true a specialised avatar is even stronger than an generalized one. But you need to understand, that some skills, like all the
    resistances for example are mandatory for every class, but that does not mean that I'm not specialised in a certain tree.
     
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  11. Arkah EMPstrike

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    I wouldnt even say all the resistances are mandatory, as i went my entire time until recently without water, earth, death, sun or air resistances trained up. But i also dont push to hit the cieling of absolute power other folks like to push for. I used to be a fire mage int he very begining (because all light armor skills and melee was broken) so i had that still to 40, But you can get by fine in this game with whatever you want because you dont need to superman bosses to sustain yourself well and have a house, complete the story, etc.

    I believe the onyl way the you could roleplay soemthing and not be able to get through the game is to be an absolute no other skills death mage without death specialization, unless they recently changed it so that death magic does hurt undead.

    Ive made a lvl 80 pure air deck to see what i can do out in the world, and there are times that (sicne i dont have air specialization) that monsters resistances keep me out of areas. But I think it would be silly of me to complain that i cant solo everything and all the content when i choose to not have more than a single tree worth of skills. Thats like saying its not fair that i cant walk from vermont to california while airline passengers can.

    EDIT: and the thought that you cant make decent money unless you can solo the rise is not true. My favorite loot farming spot is a tier4 zone with skeletal footmen, and gets me more money in vendor trash than doing the mage room in the rise. The rise jsut has better odds for looting artifacts is all
     
  12. Spungwa

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    I would dispute this point, at higher level content you need the gear as well as the skills. Switching gear during combat is not really an option, can you do it yes, should you no (less you have a death wish). So you are limited to only switching out of combat and for the builds you are prepared to carry all the weight of the extra gear for. The extra gear carried then limits your looting potential as you are carrying so much weight.

    Spung
     
  13. Barugon

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    Why do you feel it necessary to turn SotA into some other game in order to fulfill your RP requirements?
     
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  14. Rowell

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    THIS! Exactly THIS. Role play is not about constraints. If you want constraints, then that's up to you, as the player, to put constraints on yourself. Or don't. It's up to you. But your desire to constrain your own character should have absolutely zero impact on other players that want to expand their characters.

    If I want to play a master of swords, a master of air magic and a master of carpentry...why should I be constrained to "oh, you can only pick one to master in"? I know many people that are masters of several abilities. I know awesome programmers that can play guitars at professional levels, and a master in Aikido. If someone has been programming for 35+ years, playing guitar for 30 years and studying Aikido for 28 years....that's mastery. And there's no limit to that mastery. If they want to deep dive into Afghan arts, if they spend the time (ie, XP) in learning it...why can't they master it?

    I can see your argument. But it doesn't fit in SOTA, or Sandbox games.
     
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  15. Ronni

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    Not sure if it really needs to be the game that Stundorn would like to have... just the current status of the game regarding number of players, reviews etc. would let me think that it is necessary to change some aspects of the game to have a chance to be successful on the long run. A few hundred very active players (and even if they are well--off and continue to buy all staff offered by Portalarium) will not be sufficient in the long term... I am pretty sure about this.
     
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  16. Mugly Wumple

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    You said yourself, that your concerns are more about presentation and immersion rather than numbers. As a fellow roleplayer, choosing to put limitations on your character is part of the RP. You cannot expect to compete with someone who has no limitations. Every time you choose to have a conversation or pursue a player quest, you're at a disadvantage to the guy who ran past you to harvest all the trees.

    It sounds like you prefer a deep and fairly strict RP, a type I've played and enjoyed. Unfortunately, this type of roleplayer is a small minority. Things that serve strict RPers at the expense of the entire playerbase simply won't happen.
     
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  17. Woodchuck

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    It would be kind of a shame if a grand master water mage was not adept at sous-vide cooking too! :)
     
  18. Helvig Ingvildsdottir

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    Yes and as a deep and immersive roleplayer I am so very happy that this won't happen. Because everyone's opinions on what fits or doesn't fit together are different. I have been told numerous times I cannot be a death and a life mage in one character, and even game mechanics really handicap me there, but my character, a shamanic, piest-like person, is exactly about that: life and death. I don't want others to tell me what I can or can't roleplay. Please don't give me a one-dimensional super-boring D&D-like class system.

    I limit myself. I use no metal armors or weapons. I learned fire magic for resistence but I don't use it. It's my choice. I have another character that uses light armor because she is stealthy and for RP purposes I find it unrealistic to stealth in chain or plate armor. But again, it's my choice. I can't blame others for using the much better protection of heavy armor. It is their choice. And the roleplayers among them may even have an IC explanation as to why they are able to stealth in chainmail. It's not my business. My business is to portray a believable character and have fun. I don't think skill caps or classes are needed for that.
     
  19. Helvig Ingvildsdottir

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    I totally agree with that!

    In real life, you can be a master of arts, or a master of science. In German: Geisteswissenschaftler or Naturwissenschaftler. And with enough ambition, with the willingness to spend enough time and effort, you can be both.

    Take me for example: I studied literature and linguistics at university. I did my traneeship teaching that to children. Then I went to a programming school, and now I work as a requirements engineer / software designer / technical writer. Can I still explain the rules of German grammar to you? Can I still recite poems and even entire acts of famous plays by heart, and know the plot of most pieces of German high literature? Yes. Can I design a user interface, and the static structures and dynamics of a piece of software in a way that finds the head architect's approval and gets sent abroad to some code monkey no questions asked? Yes. In my freetime (when not playing SotA haha) I make soaps that are of so high quality I could easily sell them if I wanted. I'm also a fantastic chef. Ask my husband. And I consider myself very untalented compared to the majority of people.

    Now why should my character be limited to the one thing they started with? If I can get into IT after studying literature, why can my character not get into bladed combat after becoming a very skilled firemage, and in their freetime make amazing armors and weapons?

    In a RL scenery we would find it absurd to assume that just because I now learned to write IT concepts, I forgot my Goethe. If I'm never using the skill anymore, perhaps over time I may remember less and less of it. If I still practice it (by reciting stuff to friends who then roll their eyes and wait for me to sober up ;-p) I should be able to keep two even diverse skills at a high level. Unlearning things because you learn something new is not realistic.
     
  20. Ravicus Domdred

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    Why do you feel its necessary to attack the poster instead of the message? This is nothing but a personal attack derailing the topic.
     
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