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Shroud of the Avatar: Reset of the Virtues

Discussion in 'Release 34 Feedback Forum' started by Violation Clauth, Sep 29, 2016.

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  1. !(Blood0men)!

    !(Blood0men)! Avatar

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    Gosh Lum, I kinda feel Sad :( about how much you get bombarded will all the comments on not just this threads topic, but others ( I know your working like a dog on this)

    I do hope things get better for you and have a Great day :)
     
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  2. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Red for negative and blue for positive, based on an average of all 3 virtues. Overall intensity is based on your adventurer level.
     
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  3. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Amen.

    And I could care less about what my score is, other than how dark the virtue cloak is. On Earth, I like how Richard created the virtues, and I like Richard, he seems like a good guy. But on New Brittania I can't imagine why I would care about any of this even if my score was flashing in front of me constantly.

    On Earth I don't live my life based on other people's philosophical interpretations, so why would I do this on Novia?

    I'm really happy the score was removed though because just like on Earth, it's often the people that think they're being virtuous that are lacking the critical ability to know better. Be who you are, or be who you pretend to be, but don't pretend that you're entitled to be both.
     
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  4. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    Don't try to min/max your virtue. Be yourself and maybe gain some insight.
     
  5. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Noooo, I wanted an all black cloak!:(

    Surely that's the intended goal of the virtue system.:D
     
  6. Violation Clauth

    Violation Clauth Avatar

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    As this is feedback I post this in response only and I'll happily stop if asked. I do really enjoy the opportunity to try and make this system better because it's one of the most important parts of the RP side of this game... virtue based gaming isn't done well anymore and I think you guys have the best chance of pulling it off.... so, to respond:

    Well, the two conversation I had were based on speeding and running stop signs and he agreed with me on both that the feedback of the judicial systems change those who use moral and ethical conviction to redefine their nature based on the feedback of law/justice systems (in this case... speed limit signs and stop signs). He agreed and said that those are systems that simply aren't in yet and the oracle would be there to help us until then... I just found out about stats not long ago... if you don't want us to know our virtues than export "hidden" instead of "-1" ... or put it in patch notes... or remove it from stats... or put it in the release notes... or make a post about it on the forums... making it show the WRONG information doesn't help an incomplete game with more bad reviews than good to gain traction and progress forward. I just can't agree with the logic used here because it fell short. I think you guys are amazing, I appreciate what you do, and I hope that you understand I don't think less of people because they're people. I just think this one should be redone in some fashion to not create more issues, as, that is what it will continue to do if it's not handled better.

    Also, to address the theory that people don't min-max in real life just because you don't get caught, don't get a ticket, and don't hurt anyone... doesn't mean everyone will break that law. I will abide by that law, even when I think it's stupid, out of respecting that it's the law. The only time I would break that law is if it conflicts directly with an absolute belief system (AKA: if my Avatar believes it's not right to kill a humanoid but the law says to kill all Elven races who cut down trees... would I kill them for cutting the tree or not do it? I would not do it and break the law.) There is a pecking order to one's beliefs even if people won't accept that. Continuing through the same example: what if that elf attacked me without me provoking it? Would I kill it then? Yes... but that goes against my belief... Ah, but I rational that as being self defense and not murder thus it's an allowed killing. So the tree's life is less important than the Elf's life... and my life I find more important than the Elf's life if they're in direct conflict with each other; however, out of direct conflict I see them equal. IE: I wouldn't steal the Elf's food if I was starving because I feel that isn't right either...

    Outside of virtue tests and directly using the above to further illustrate my points:

    • I don't speed even when I won't get caught... I set cruise control to the speed limit to ensure this actually. True story that you can ask. My kids always tell me "Daddy, can you please go faster than the rocks now?" because I drive them slower than anyone else... to which I respond "If I catch you driving faster than the rocks I'll be taking the keys when you get older!" :)
    • I don't run stop signs in the middle of nowhere where you can see a mile in both directions to see it's clear... I come to a complete stop and then go through it. No one would have been hurt... no one was there to see it... it's a personal conviction I hold to because of my personal standards I hold myself to.

    Even if I am the only person who has adjusted to do what I'm convicted is right, without reason (aka, it's not right by my own reason or by any reason I can define other than the law) even when not being watched, I still take your point and nullify it.

    Under that same conviction I've played your game to this day... I know I could loot many bodies and even some cities without it changing my virtues. I have people who have told me of blacksmith shops that you can rob blind without changing your virtues. I elected not to do so... I don't do what's right because your game tells me it's right. I've passed up an easy 400k in gold and items not looting. Moreover, when your game tells me what I did wasn't right THROUGH COMPASSION FOR THE NATIVES AND LOCAL SOCIAL SYSTEMS I change my behavior to play it even more extremely.

    The virtue system is half the game. Please don't think of it as not important... your entire story revolves around it and your entire story is the only thing that makes this game better than UO... honestly, UO has way more balanced combat at this point and it runs at a better framerate than this. I quit that game years ago to not return and I'm a long way from quitting this game. The community and story of this game are very important to it's longevity and success. I appreciate you taking the time to read my other comments and responding and I hope you understand that my feedback and disagreements are my way of hoping for a change to the better. I'm not attacking you and your understanding, just trying to correct what I see as a flaw in the foundation of your choice for changing things. That fundamental flaw leaves someone, who acts 100% of the time based on conviction and belief, nowhere to exist.
     
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  7. Lum the Mad

    Lum the Mad Developer Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Your disagreement is noted and I hope you take that up with Richard as well. I can personally attest he agrees with you as to the importance of the virtues in SotA!
     
  8. Selene

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  9. Gideon Thrax

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    Virtues are absolutely critical and core components to this game... I was so excited the day I discovered my virtue was affected by PVP, not just the act but how it played out. That single realization opened my eyes to a completely new way to play. To be clear, there is no way the virtue system could ever become too complicated or complex. In fact, I dare you to try and make it overly complex and complicated!

    Wanted to add - by discover I mean, the day I went to the Oracle and she talked to me about a PVP interaction I had just had. It was enlightening and really brought me into the game. I'll admit, I checked my stats, but only because they were there... I like that they're all hidden now. Let actions be judged... very awesome move hiding the stats.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  10. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    Sometimes the mistery is attractive and I like that, but I think that all this would be more "friendly" with anofficial word about how the current system works gameplay wise.

    e.g. how the steal system works acturally ingame, which scenes are not yet implemented with the virtue system, etc.

    What do you guys think about this? more clear arguments would help us to understand the mechanics in a better form.
     
  11. Womby

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    I disagree. It is far better that the players not know when they are being monitored, and the methods used for such monitoring. Otherwise some players might use the information to avoid or exploit the system.
     
  12. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    I'm not talking about numbers, not talking about which you need to do to obtain x amount of points. Maybe I did not explaing well myself.

    My topic is more about more transparency information;

    - Which scenes are working?
    - Is there any difference between steel stuff in a town with living npcs and adventure towns with mobs? etc..

    There are more examples. I wish to know these kind of things.

    I'm agree with the part of not making public anything we can use to exploit the system.
     
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  13. sdbaynham

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    The problem is with the details of how the system works. Someone who loots abandoned stuff out of tenebris harbor and kills fauns in a pitched battle with satyrs to survive is imperfect. In SotA, though, they're considered downright evil. The idea that I'm gonna play through the game and in the ending the game is like "lol u evil jerk" is deeply concerning, so yeah I'm going to try to min/max because I don't want to be caught off-guard like that.
     
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  14. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    Right. Why steal stuff from a dead town invaded with enemies is the same as if we do the same in another town full of friendly habitants?? how many factors are in?

    If there is lack of the basic information people will stay being politically correct and neutral, fearing what they are doing and what they are not doing. Sometimes things too realistics (or the try to make them realistic) is not the best solution for a videogame. gameplay > realism.
     
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  15. Isaiah

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    Nailed it!
     
  16. Gideon Thrax

    Gideon Thrax Avatar

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    "A virtue is not a variable, it is a philosophy." -Lum

    I think building a character with a moral compass (or without one) is key to experiencing the mechanics of the virtue system. Let the inner glow shine! :D
     
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  17. Resolute

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    Would've been better if you had assigned :

    Red to Love
    Blue to Truth
    Green to Courage

    Then had the glow of the cloak be the colour of made up of the amount of RGB and the lightness (not the brightness of the glow which could still be level based) made up of how much of that virtue they display.

    So somebody that has a very high Love and little Truth and Courage would be bright red glow.
    Somebody that high in all three would have a bright white glow.
    Somebody that low-medium in all three would have a grey glow.
    Somebody that was negative would have a black glow.
    Somebody with high Love and Truth and little Courage would be Purple and so on.
     
  18. agra

    agra Avatar

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    So... there are numbers, but we can't see them anymore. Even when we could see the numbers, what changed them was inconsistent, counter-intuitive, illogical, and in some cases, trivially exploited.
    There are serious in-game consequences for all our actions, but now we act in ignorance, and by design, are kept ignorant.
    Even just playing "normally", that is, by adventuring to acquire XP evidently has serious in-game consequences which we can't control and can't ever respond to.
    There's an entire thread with people who have insane virtue values and they never did anything that remotely qualifies for the numbers. Their actions were not reflected in those values, by any sane measure.
    As a result, there is zero (or less than full, at least) confidence that the virtue system isn't a bug riddled mess of insanity, at this point.
    How is this a positive feature, again?

    I mean, seriously, if this is your idea of a great in-game feature? I'm going to ignore it and do everything in my power to never interact with the Oracle, ever, nor ever do a quest, nor ever interact with an NPC. You're literally setting me up for failure, guaranteed, and that's not entertainment, that's manipulation. Not cool, Portalarium, not cool.
     
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  19. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    I'm agree on that, and I like the part that we can't check our virtue stats anymore. We just need to know more about the basics of the system and how is currently implemented and which factors are in.
     
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  20. Mugly Wumple

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    "Virtue is a philosophy." The philosophy of a creepy, mechanical overseer with unknown agenda. Why would we know what criteria it's using to judge us except by its advice?
     
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