Shroud of the Avatar VS UO skill system

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by jsopranik, Dec 5, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Segallion

    Segallion Avatar

    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I'm honestly not sure what you are disagreeing with since my post mostly reflected my own preference. If you are disagreeing that it's arguable that xp systems are a grind, then you just proved my point by arguing against it ;)
     
  2. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, I'm more trying to make the point that the RPG world outside of the MMORPG figured out how to divorce a XP/level progression system from grinding almost 20 years ago, whereas even non-subscription based MMORPGs still seem happy to inflict massive mindless grind on players.
     
    Segallion likes this.
  3. Segallion

    Segallion Avatar

    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ok, gotcha. I had a discussion about this with a friend awhile back and he felt a lot of quests just are makeup on the grind ( he used the makeup on a pig analogy). I can see his point of view. The problem with that position for me is if you take the story away, eg quests, and the need to fight mobs to advance, then what type of game does he want to play. Anyway not to bore you with that, but that "debate" went on for awhile after that then.

    But you do raise a compelling point re the struggle between a single player RPG and an mmo that occurs on the development side...the mmo side the game typically is designed to keep you coming back and if possible to keep paying. I spoke to one of the guys who originally made WoW ( he no longer part of it) and he flat out admitted to me that game was designed to prey on never ending progression advancement, the euphoria felt with advancement, then the need to get that feeling again through something ( loot or character level) more powerful.

    Whereas a single player game (expansion packs aside) is more typically driven to give you a story, like reading a book, and going from start to end on a journey (instead of a never ending cycle of carrot and stick).

    Anyways, that's just my 2 cents on it...and circling back to my original post, for skills advancement I still prefer usage based advancement over general skill distribution. I liked it from UO, wasteland, and even the more recent elder scroll games.
     
    Tahru, Aldo and snikorts like this.
  4. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think it's great for single player titles, but in MMOs it puts players want to be competitive while having fun in an awkward position. If you want to be competitive you have to grind, which you can do while having fun, but if you don't use afk grinding you'll fall behind. I've quit several MMOs because I realized that if I wanted to be a crafter, I'd have to commit weeks to either scripted grinding, because nothing you could craft at low to medium levels was worth a damn on the market as everyone was flooding it to get to higher levels. PvE in those games was broken too as herds of PvE players strip mined the mobs to collect crafting resources to sell. Now if you could find a way to implement a usage based skilled progression system that didn't encourage each and every crafter to build enough gear to outfit a small nation, single-handedly, each week, I'd be all over it.
     
    Segallion and Tahru like this.
  5. Segallion

    Segallion Avatar

    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Does ESO fulfill your requirement? I consider it far less "grindy" than UO for skilling up - then again, that is a level and skill system, where the combat skills you use the most tend to stay around your level. I found blacksmithing in that game fairly straight forward (to level up).

    I dont buy into the platitude of grinding to be competitive and falling behind anymore. I understand what you are saying but that is completely player choice to feel the need to race to the max level. Also, you're really setting the bar high for yourself if you need to be in the upper echelon of crafters selling constantly desired items from day one so that you dont have worthless low level items to sell. It is your choice of course, but I think you are setting yourself up for more frustration than fun that way...but that's my thoughts.
     
  6. Pamela Eldritch

    Pamela Eldritch Avatar

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I don't want to grind out skills - (I don't have years to burn 8X8ing this time around) but in the end it does not really matter to me how the skill progression works. Eventually everyone will be maxed out- that is when it starts mattering to me. I certainly recognize that for new players or players who just love to level (or skill) up it will be important to have a fun systems. One area I do think matters is the graphics, icons, sounds and animations used in the leveling/skill use parts of the game. These seem really rough to me and I think they are high impact.

    Balance between the classes in both PvE and PvP is very difficult. Players are incredibly fickle and respond to metagame changes really negatively when they lose any edge. (Or when when they think they might have lost an edge but have not.)

    My hope is that they build systems complex enough to have a wide variety of character types, with enough dials to experiment with balance settings, and that does not take years of grinding to explore.
     
  7. MalakBrightpalm

    MalakBrightpalm Avatar

    Messages:
    1,342
    Likes Received:
    1,480
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sol system.
    Keep in mind that LB's plan, as stated in deep dives, is to regularly introduce content patches that, if nothing else, give us a steady stream of NEW skill trees to learn, so that there is rarely if ever the ability to "Max Out". Personally I like that, the idea that if I am a smart and aggressive player I'll be able to get somewhat ahead of the crowd, and if I keep pushing my limits then I'll never really reach them.
     
  8. Burzmali

    Burzmali Avatar

    Messages:
    1,290
    Likes Received:
    1,771
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'd say that ESO's system is better on paper, but given the general failure of ESO, I can't say for certain that a progression system like that didn't speed its decline.
    The problem I am alluding to is that once you've fallen behind the curve in a usage-based progression system, you can't ever really "catch up" and until you do so, you are stuck crafting worthless dross. Who is going to pay anything for your freshly crafted tier 3 items when the marketed is flooded with tier 5 items? The economy gets all bent out of shape when crafting to level is worth more than profiting from the created item.
     
  9. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

    Messages:
    2,309
    Likes Received:
    3,988
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    The Drowned Mountains
    one thing i liked about ESO's crafting system: if you deconstructed SOMEONE ELSES gear, you got more points for it, than if you deconstructed your own. that tiny factoid is what allowed my guild to master every craft very quickly, using our leapfrog technique one of our members figured out.

    with a system where you have to work together in that way, there's a REASON why you'd still have tier1-3 items on the market, and it woudl maintain a decent share in sales too.

    while i REALLY like the way they worked together as a team, i dislike the sheer advantage of mastering each craft within 3 hours to 3 days, depending on the craft. thats why i personally did not use the leapfrog system, and got much more out of the journey.

    i'd hope there is a reward for working together in crafting, as opposed to everyone mastering everything, i know it is VERY difficult to balance that. i feel that ESO went too far in one direction, while TR is going too far in the opposite direction. maybe SOTA can learn from the two systems and come to a decent compromise and take it a step further in awesomeness.
     
    David3 likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.