Skill progress mechanics should be improved to be more fair and avoid grinding

That's funny because it's working for me just fine. You seem to be misunderstanding something.. you get XP for EVERY kill.. every time.

You're going to have to be a little more specific as to what this "leveling window" is. Never heard of such a thing. I just go kill stuff and watch my skills go up.. and up.. and up... Get XP from the kills into the pool.. skills take XP from pool and go up. That's how it works. The way I do it has been most effective and much more entertaining than sitting there using skills on nothing until there's no more XP for the skills to take.

 

It would be nice if quests would still help a little bit with leveling...

 

Why wouldn't they? Just because they don't show us the numbers anymore does not mean they aren't there.

 

The issues with the system reguarding this are two things. you're still being forced to start with a bunch of blade and light armor etc skills you probably dont want which may be consuming your initial experience.
You can avoid using your gained experience by locking the skills your using (which, in this first iteration, is a bit tedious)
most people have started with an experience pool that they will not have once a character wipe occurs, putting everyne int he situation you're in now.

And lastly, there are numerous quests all over the place that get you alot of experience, alot of them you do nto even have to fight anything (tho they may send you to dangerous areas). Personally i know there are enough quests to get you to what would have been over level 20 last release. But i have been told by people who have took the time to talk to NPCs More that there are actually more quests than that.

I think the major issue about this is the starting skills. They are going to make where you arent forced to start with them at some point

 

The reality is there are 1001 online games out there that cater to 'modern/mainstream' gamers. There are 165k backers of this one that I think are looking for something else. Don't hold our hand, don't tell us what's safe, build it and let us learn and explore this world with danger, uncertainty and the great sense of reward when we succeed on our own. Yes, McDonalds stays in business because a very large number of people enjoy that experience, but some people despise it and eat elsewhere.

 

If you want a world full of empty POTs, that's how to get it. And to continue your analogy, McDonalds is popular, but just because White Castle came first and hasn't grown as popular, it doesn't make their burgers intrinsically better. Boring grinding was the mainstay of all RPGs prior to maybe Baldur's Gate and Fallout, and every MMORPG prior to 2005ish. As people experimented, they discovered that you didn't need to build in boring grinds to make a good game and the world rejoiced. I look back fondly on games made 20 years ago, but I am not under any delusion that gaming peaked with the Ultima 4-6.

 

Well, it would seem this is a case of your forecasting vs. mine in regards to who is going to play this game. You seem quite convinced that it will be the mainstream WoW crowd that aren't into the 'progress takes time' element and want rewards nice and easy and fast. I don't see this as being the the case and I don't think a majority of backers are requiring that. Time will certainly tell the tale. It's pre-alpha and neither of us know exactly what the release will look like.

Before coming on board a week ago I watched many Richard Garriot You-tube interviews where he voices a lack of interest in making a game such as the one I feel you're describing. That was the 'hook in mouth' factor for me, and frankly a big reason why I'm here.

I've been too broke to repair my items at the rate I would like but I like that it's tough at first, until I learn the ropes to make some real money. The 'grind' you refer to here is very different from 'hell' levels in EQ where at 35 your camping Aviak avocets in South Karana for days if you can get a camp and a group.

One thing to keep in mind is how this game is not relying on a subscription to keep it alive. It's based on money up front and with that, it doesn't need that WoW 'carrot' system to keep players subscribed for revenue. If someone does the research and knows what kind of game the designers are into making and that appeals to them, then they back the project, is how I see it.

Oh, and your take on my McDonalds reference kind of goes in the opposite direction I was implying. More like: WoW = McDonalds | SotA = Ruth's Chris

 

Sir, WoW could afford a herd of cows and made McDonalds, SOTA can afford half a leg, the tail and the left eye and you are expecting USDA choice.

 

I think we're swinging and missing each other on the restaurant analogies.

 

One point about killing.

What happens if someone just wants to sneak around and hide really well?

Where do they get their pool of exp from?

I believe this is what the Baron was talking about.

There are non-crafting and non-combat skills that require combat exp to level with.

How does a thief and a lockpick and a sneak eventually exist?

 

I think by doing quests. Sometimes you have the option not to fight during a quest (but not always, often you have to kill something, is that a bad point?) so you do the sneak thing, find XY (etc), complete the quest, fill up your pool and use that non-combat skills to improve that skills. Combat exp. is more an adventure exp. I think.

But I got you, without killing anything, you will earn much less XP and you are forced to do more quest, which also can lead in killing something. Hmm...

 

Damn sake888... you're cool. Friend me in game if you'd like and I'll show you around and answer any questions you may have.

As for your comment, I believe the player base will be those types of players that enjoy the game being difficult and are willing to put in the time to get the requisite sense of accomplishment that comes from that time investment. That's the reason why I plan to be playing this game for a long time and when I feel the game has gotten too easy, that I've accomplished everything I can, or the best armor you can craft can be gathered/crafted by the casual gamer in one hour, then I'll move on to a more challenging game.

I believe someone once said "We choose to go to the moon in this decade, and do the other things, not because they are easy but because they are hard".

I for one want this game to take me to the moon; I can go to McDonald's any time.

 

You are conflating difficulty with time investment. Killing 500 wolves is no more difficult than killing 5 wolves, it's just a heck of a lot more time consuming. Subscription based games and F2Ps pat you on the head and give you a cookie for conflating the two, but in a game where you have already paid, it isn't necessary. I'm currently trying to construct a sword from tier 2 materials, based on my current gathering rate, it will probably take around 3 hours to collect all the components. With a couple quick edits, the devs could make it take 10 hours, making them much more rare. However, while they would have made it more time consuming to make the blade, making it more of an accomplishment to construct one, it wouldn't be any harder to do so.

 

Hmmm the game you guys are describing if I am reading you all correctly makes me want to quit .... I love to explore, craft, do quests, work on my house etc.... but I do not want to spend Hours working on 1 thing at a time .... sounds like it would take me hours to up my experience enough to be able to adventure to fight the mobs that spawn to find the nodes (for crafting) I need, to be able to craft the stuff I want, then hours to go back and the the stuff I now need to just repair my stuff from fighting the mobs that spawned while harvesting the stuff I need to craft the repair kits I need to repair my gear before I can go back to adventure rinse repeat, WHEN do I get to actually enjoy the game? I like hard, but not that dang hard .... I hate difficult, and this sounds like mindless grinding for nodes to be able to do anything... I think I need my coffee , not sure if I am making any sense here. Sorry. BTW I am a solo mostly player, so I don't want it so hard that I can't play without finding a group to do it. I aslo at the same time don't want things just handed to me either, I like earning it, but don't want to feel like I am spending my life trying to achieve it...

 

This is even more funny as said above is really true, unless we are talking about different games.

Watch this video and pay attention to Fire Arrow skill icon.
While I fight the first target, it doesn't progress at all!
I Just wasted two and half minutes fighting without getting any progress on my skills.
Only after the first skeleton is killed (@2:30 on video), Fire Arrow icon started to gain XP (thin green bar under its icon).



Watch the video in HD full screen to see thin progress bars under skill icons.

 

As was already exaplined.. skills take XP from the adventure or crafting XP pool. From how you're playing (according to you).. you've already exhausted that pool when you stand around after a fight using skills on nothing to skill them up.. so naturally you're not going to get those gains during a fight when there's no XP left for the skills to draw from.

Now that you've killed your first skeleton that puts XP into the pool allowing the skill to advance until that XP is gone. Which is because you use it up after the fight again. It is your own behavior that's bringing this pattern about.

 

I actually am with Bowen on this... I go out and kill stuff and my skill goes up; that's it. If you kill 8 wolves at the same time and get no "skill" (admittedly this would suck) then the next 8 wolves that you kill you'll be fine... and the 8 after that and so on. Same goes for crafting... if the first time I craft a plate chest my skill doesn't go up because I had no XP in my pool prior to then (maybe it was the very first thing that you did), no worries because it'll go up on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc time after then because the way I see it I'll just be using the XP from the previous crafting to advance my skill. So long as you're doing "stuff" while using skills you'll always be fine. I know I currently have a ton of XP in my pool but we'll definitely all get a chance to see what gaining skill while needing XP is like after the next wipe because even I'm curious (but not worried).

Maybe the devs could start out characters with a tiny amount of XP for both crafting and adventuring so they don't get zero skill increase when they start using skills for the very first time?

Nice point... it really is. Although I don't think "crafting" an obsidian plate chest (possibly the best armor) is ever actually going to be any more difficult for the player to craft (you're still just going to click a button and get a chance roll to succeed/fail which even my cat can do) but by putting in the time you'd be able to at least be able to attempt to craft it and get a sense of accomplishment from doing so. I'm not sure how a casual gamer can get the benefits of something that comes from time such as working to craft a crap-ton of armor in order to grandmaster smithing plate armor and start making the best stuff that can be made (I actually not sure... I'm not just being obtuse). For instance, if every player (casual and hardcore) were both able to craft the very best stuff available after very little time, I'm not sure how that would be good for either the hardcore gamer who would be thinking "this is too easy for me because it only took me 5 hours to get to this point" or the casual gamer who would be thinking "I won! This is too easy for me, I'm done with this game and am moving on to another game".

 

Ok. I spent two hours playing and killing things non-stop. Killing single target takes around two minutes.

What happened:

- I killed one target and get NO XP.
- I killed second target and get XP
- I killed third target and get NO XP
- I killed fourth targe and get XP.
- repeated above steps many times with the same result

 

Ohhhhhh.... okay.

Yeah, that sounds like a bug.

 

XP awards are hidden.. that doesn't mean you're not getting XP for the kill. You get XP for ALL kills.. that is the XP that goes into your XP pool that your skills take from.

Either a bug or utterly wrong. From the start is sounds like you're not understanding how the process works. I promise I gain skills all the time with pertty much every fight before I make the kill. I don't stand around using up my skill pool raising skills. Never have. And the behavior you describe yourself doing will lead the kind of results you've been seeing.

Make sure your skills are flagged to train up and just go kill stuff. Remember that skills take a % of XP from the XP pool so the less you have the pool the less your skills will increase with each use. Since you've been draining that pool all the time your skills will increase that much more slowly..