So...crafting spec WONT be "choose your bonuses" ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kaeshiva, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. belijaal

    belijaal Avatar

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    Exactly, so many self-proclaimed top crafters don't know what they're doing.
     
  2. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    I don't run a "store" so I'm not sure what you visited or where - most of what I do is custom order. The only stuff I sell are rejects of stuff that other people wanted (not my choice on materials) or leftovers from making stuff with what I had laying around for new folks. I learned a long time ago that making 'top end' gear doesn't pay for itself because as others have mentioned, if you work in the cost of all the failures your break even price is more than most people are willing to pay. I haven't run a shop for this reason for well over 18 months.

    As you say in your own words - knowing how to combine components and make good choices is key. Except that the game doesn't actually let you make those choices, its based on luck. So which is it?

    Agree, these would all be good additions. But they don't address the fundamental waste that is 95% of our crafting system.

    There's already enough RNG in the process - getting the components, more and more of which are coming from drops rather than harvesting which rely on two stages of RNG - getting the item to drop, and getting the component during salvage.

    There's still RNG in exceptional rates and in success chances with a hard limit of attempts from the item's durability.

    Why do we need another layer on the RNG cake? The only good answer I've heard is to keep ore prices high for the RMT miners, and I reject that as a reason to keep the current system.

    There's enough different opinions on which materials and bonuses are 'optimal' that we'll still have variety - what we wont have, is a bloat of JUNK clogging up vendors in some last ditch effort to try and recoup a fraction of the cost.

    There'd be a place for some RNG in the system if the waste issue was addressed, i.e. considerable return on salvage but as it stands, there's simply no reason for me to craft other than to help other people out or outfit myself which doesn't leave a lot of options for playing the game as an artisan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  3. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    The reason for that is because we are (like many crafters) on hold waiting for specialisation which we were told was coming. At the moment there is no real point to craft anything because you end up with a ton of junk gear that no one wants.
    For the past 4-5 months we have only crafted for specific orders and for the customers materials. We do a consultation process when making items so that they get as close to what they actually want as they can get.
     
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  4. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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  5. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    I refer to the pieces for sale in Ordinis Mortis Crafted by Shimizu.
    And that's where you're wrong, making good choices on what comes out, pushing to the 4th or even 5th mw/ench, knowing what is a junk and what can be a potential 4 mw item instead of labeling it as junk, that's the real crafter skill, the game already gives you 3 choices, with spec there will be even more choices.
     
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  6. Aartemis

    Aartemis Avatar

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    Circling back to when crafting was first being designed, there was a lot of talk about refining. Perhaps this is the direction we should be looking instead of RNG Effects.

    You don't necessarily need random effects if the true power of the item comes from a repeated refining procedure to the item. Let the build process put the effect on the item but
    move the bonuses to much, much less on creation. Now that you have the item, up the difficulty on refining, push the limits of Grand-master and beyond to enhance the
    effects placed on the item during its creation. You can still remove durability on failures, use skill to determine increase amounts, and even have a chance at bumping durability at
    highest skills.

    Separate the parts of which effects are placed on the item and the bonus increases that you get. Place the Balance on the increases, not on randoming effects.

    There are options besides RNG or flood the market, just takes a little thinking outside the box, and investment of real design hours. Everything cannot be created in a 10 min patch.
     
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  7. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    I think this is where the confusion is coming from Artrax. The current system gives you 3 choices out of a possible 14 (ish) pool. The way they are talking about implementing specialisation would give you more options for the pool, not the choices. So you would be going to 3 choices out of a pool of 18+. Being higher level would be detrimental as it would give you less control over what you actually had.
     
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  8. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    From what I understood they will increase the number of choices available as well as the number of enchantments/Masterworks available.
    I hope I'm not wrong.

    Anyway, my opinion is always the same, letting people pick the Enchantments/Masterworks from the entire list goes against any improvement of the artisan figure and undermines the economy of crafted items.
     
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  9. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Yes, the stuff I haul to Ordinis are rejects that I throw on a vendor in case they're useful for anyone.
    I'm sure we have different opinions on what is junk - but if I get 3 mw on something and its not got the one I want yet, I can either pour more silver into it and trash the durability further trying to get that 18% chance of not failing (and still no guarantee that I'll get the option I want, evne if it succeeds) or I can throw it up on a vendor in case someone else wants it, because it is no longer possible to get what I was after. Same thing with enchanting. If I'm trying for int and I'm 3 enchants in with no int, there's little point in continuing I'm just flushing resources. Maybe a low level will use it so I throw on a vendor (or more often, in a box) rather than salvaging it since salvaging it (or selling it) gives you less than a penny on the dollar return there's no point.

    This is where my frustration with the system is. Its repeated disappointment and waste of resources that take time(or gold) to acquire, often leaving you with nothing to show for it. I don't think that's fun, and I am definitely not alone.
     
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  10. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    While I disagree, I think there's room for compromise on this for sure.
    Picking from the entire list too much? Ok, well what are the options?

    Picking from the entire list "*ie choose your effects*) but locking yourself into a single tree is what was announced/promised so that was the expectation.
    Maybe it needs re-evaluating.
    Specialization could open up additional option 'slots' as you levelled it, but never give you the full option pool. It would help, as long as they don't fill the option pool with dozens more undesirable/junk effects that you don't -ever- want.
    I like the idea of building bonuses into the refining stage too to direct the final product.
    Perhaps giving specialist the ability to 'lock' a few choices (which grows with level) so they -never- come up, so there's a smaller option pool to choose from.
    Or even changing the masterwork/enchant material (say, a different metal type for int, dex, and str, but still have RNG on whether its major, minor, etc.)
    Anything that gives players more control over the output would be better than what we have now.
     
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  11. Gefionious

    Gefionious Avatar

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    [​IMG]

    11 out of 3 effects, with only 1 to keep every round of attempts(1 / 11 first, then 1 / 10, then 1/9 (3rd attempt), then 1/8 if you do a 4th. The 5th effect is pretty rare(8% chance), I can do it on rings sometimes. These are enchant numbers, not counting the masterworking that was done previously.
     
  12. Arkah EMPstrike

    Arkah EMPstrike Avatar

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    The way i heard it is that every 10 or 20 levels of specialization would unlock an additional choice.

    So instead of 3 u get 4, then 5, etc
     
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  13. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

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    Apparently I understood perfectly :) i find it more than fair, hoping there is a cap and not with 140 spec u get 10 choices.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  14. belijaal

    belijaal Avatar

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    If that is true you would have 5-10 additional choices at spec 100 which basicly means you get what you want a lot of the time. That would almost be like choosing what you want.

    I think that is ridiculously dumb and broken.
     
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  15. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    Well, not if they're planning on diluting the pool with another dozen options.
    We'd be the same (or worse) off than we are now.

    It depends on what the intent is for a player to create the item they want and how high end an item.
    Are we expected to make 10 of something to get what we want? 100? 500?

    Assuming lets say, 12 choices in each pool (some are much higher, like spear/bow mws, but lets be generous)

    Lets make a simple 2x/2x item?

    3 choices out of 12, then 3 choices out of 11 for the MW, and same for the enchant.
    Ignoring all failures/durability/exceptional and just looking at the RNG step:

    Chance of getting a 2x/2x item you want? 4.65% (3/12*3/11*3/12*3/11).
    Call it 5%.

    So you need to make about 20 items to stastically succeed.
    When you start pushing for 3rd enchants those probabilities plummet.
    You're talking hundreds of attempts to try and get something with exactly what you want.
    And all the extra things you get are likely not marketable or, at least, not for what they cost.

    Oh, I'm aware you can keep flogging it at ¬50% success on your third go, but you get the idea.

    So, how many items do they expect us to have to make to get what we want?
    if the answer is for every 1 'decent item' we need to 'ruin' 99 items ...then they can plan accordingly.
    I just really hope that's not the plan, cause its awful.

    I think most people could stomach having to make a half a dozen breastplates to get it right, but hundreds? That is "dumb and broken."
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  16. Steevodeevo

    Steevodeevo Avatar

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    Along the right lines, maybe, but definately not 'get what you want every 6 crafts' surely not?

    The rarity in that (a 1 in 6 fail to success ratio) is negligible, the desirability as a special item and difference maker, marginal. That ratio would definately end up with all of us in the same gear, or owning the same closet of gear.
     
  17. Elrond

    Elrond Avatar

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    Chris spoke in a stream about this and i do agree its a better option then just allow crafters to pick everything they want /need... He said that rng will stay but as you level a proffesion you might get more options on what to pick ...i think its a compromise that might satisfy both sides . Right now im more concerned about the actual gear potency ...and the rewards that await those who dream about 150 + skills in crafting

    Currently
    at lvl 100 Alchemy you can enchant 2.9 - 3 stat ( dex , str ...) on a piece of gear for only 2.4 mil xp
    at lvl 150 Alchemy you can enchant 3.3 -.3.4 stat ( dex , str ...) on a piece of gear for 284 mil xp

    This is a big problem with the current system which i hope Chris finds a solution ... The crafting plan is supposed to be revealed at the end of this month so nothing is certain .
     
  18. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    You're assuming that everyone would want the exact same thing. Same bindings, same straps, same bolts. That we'd all even want the same bonuses, which we wouldn't. I know there's "cookie cutter" builds out there that a lot of the top players use for maximum effectiveness but not everyone chooses to do that. And even among those, people vary on their choices for one reason or another.

    And if everyone ended up using the same thing? Then that to me is an indication that the less used materials (or bonuses) need to be balanced to make them viable choices - the answer shouldn't be "lets make it impossible to get what you want so everyone accepts mediocrity."

    You think 1 success in 6 is too small a number, I think its too high a number - considering its per piece, to make items that WILL wear out, and you wear so many pieces of gear)
    At the moment, we're at 1 in <hundreds>.

    Gloves, Boots, Helmet, Chest, Legs, Two Weapons, Ring, Necklace. 9 pieces at 6 attempts per piece means I've got to make 54 items to get 1 set of mid-grade gear. If you start adding up refining time, component crafting time, not to mention mining time, it starts to get absurd. Especially if you're only wanting to work exceptionals on things like gloves/boots that have no dura to speak of.

    I don't know what the winning "number" is, but whatever it is, the math can be planned around it.
     
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  19. belijaal

    belijaal Avatar

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    One of us, it might be me, totally misunderstood the possible changes Arkah presented.

    Let's take a pool of 12 possibilities. You have 3 choices +1 every 10-20 levels. In an extreme case you get 3+10 choices out of a pool of 12 which means you basicly get to choose exactly what you want all the time because the the number of your choices will exceed the number of possiblities.
     
  20. kaeshiva

    kaeshiva Avatar

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    If its an extra choice every 10 levels, then yes you're right - but they're also talking about adding additional effects to the option pool. And honestly, I don't expect its going to be that generous (it never is). There's already I think 20 options in some of the weapon masterwork pools as of now. (I'd have to add them up, but..there tends to be 2 weapon damage mws, weapon crit dmg, weapon crit chance, and then 2 masterworks for each active skill, and then durability, and then strength....) With enchants its not quite as bad, unless you gem something.

    If they start adding additional effects, then even having a window popup with 10 choices (out of a possible 25-30 effects) you'd still have to do this quite a few times to get what you wanted. I expect they'll do test cases on this and try to come up with the number of attempts they want a player to do (ie how much materials they want them to burn), probability wise.

    The main point of my op is that this is different than what we were led to believe was going to be how all of this would work - feels like a giant backpedal. I have serious concerns if they add even more dilution to the pool without opening up more 'option' slots because its already far too wasteful to try and make smoething specific.
     
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