So...crafting spec WONT be "choose your bonuses" ?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by kaeshiva, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Scoffer

    Scoffer Avatar

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    This is what was actually suggested a few months ago but not what was talked about on the live stream.
     
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  2. belijaal

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    Sure, it depends on how much they will dilute the pool and how many choices you get. Specialisations should give a noticable benefit but in my opinion it shouldn't be close to choosing.

    I share the same concerns as @Antrax Artek.
     
  3. Scoffer

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    Watch the video again, he doesn't actually say you get more choices, he says you get more options to pick FROM.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434462662

    Timestamp to 51:45 ish someone asks that very question and he answers saying "the more buffs that come in it does increase the size of the die that is rolled" which I think the only way you can interpret this is that they are planning on adding more choices to the pool, not to how many you are picking.
     
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  4. Gia2

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    Oooohhh exactly. It's even worse than now. But y ll happy soooo <leaves the room>
     
  5. kaeshiva

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    I understand the position - but the whole point of this was that you were to get the ability to choose but ONLY in the tree that you specialized, requiring players to work together to optimise gear. That's a pretty severe limitation, considering that any piece of gear at minimum needs two different trees (mw, enchant). The expectation was you'd choose the bonuses for one, but not the other (if making it yourself) or you'd find/cooperate with someone else. Of course, the whole 'army of alts' thing makes the entire point of requiring specialization moot.

    I still don't really understand why people think 1 in 100 RNG is a good thing.
    Does it add more gear variety? No, it just means more waste for a good item (nobody buys/wears most of the junk)
    Does it make gear better? No, just makes it more expensive/time consuming to make.
    It also makes pricing all over the place and inconsistent, and gear choice is basically ' what you end up with out of luck ' rather than strategic decision making.
    Is it just a matter of there having to be a bit of punishment involved? I can get that, although I think its debatable how much is reasonable to actually keep players engaged.

    If you sent someone harvesting for 8 hours a day, and at the end of that day, they had a handful of attempts to make the piece of gear they wanted, and didn't get it. Oh well, try again tomorrow. Next day, same thing. Next day, same thing. How long will the average person keep doing this? I'm not saying it shouldn't take effort and investment - I'm saying that effort and investment should have a predictable, reliable payout.

    You do the job, you get your paycheck. If I only had a 1% chance of getting my paycheck at the end of my shift I'd be finding a different job.
     
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  6. Elrond

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    48:22

    Chris

    '' If we add more randoms to crafting''... ( to the pool )'' we 're gonna increase the number of things you can have in there'' ( options to choose from when the window pops up ).
     
  7. Antrax Artek

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    Or just using multiple accounts filled with crafting exp often improperly obtained through flaws and exploits ;)
     
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  8. kaeshiva

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    Yep, that's why its moot...lol
     
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  9. Elrond

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    It helps new players compete with veterans . If you always get what you want with skill 140 and new player with just 100 skill does the same ..who do you think is always gonna sell his gear . Believe it or not rng actually helps low lvl crafters compete because they could be luckier then you get all the right stuff in just 3-4 tries and you can try 100 and succeed just once .
     
  10. Scoffer

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    How sure are you that it wasn't meant like this?
     
  11. kaeshiva

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    Perhaps, but if the potency issue you pointed out is addressed, this wouldn't be the case any longer.

    I'm not sure if its a good thing that a new person with a few hours in can 'compete' with someone who has been at it years - if so, why invest years?

    That, and a new player isn't going to have done the hundreds of hours of resource acquisition to actually be successful if they AREN'T lucky.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  12. belijaal

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    That's why we have to be extremely careful what we wish for @kaeshiva . I can totally relate to wanting a different crafting system after spending millions off igg on trying to get an high end iten but this game is about one bad decision away from going under.
     
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  13. Elrond

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    I think its too early to speculate ... ill wait till i hear what the actual plan is ... until then im not sure of anything.
     
  14. Elrond

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    Only if you remove rng out of the equation ..otherwise the same principle applies. If im 140 alchemy and my enchants have now been boosted i can do a major enchant of 15 stat ..youre gonna buy my wand with 15 str or a low lvl wand with just 7 int ?

    They can compete ...doesnt mean they can make the same thing you can with 40 lvls higher ..that gives you a serious advantage .
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  15. Antrax Artek

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    Finally some holy words from an experienced crafter/player, 100% agree.
     
  16. Arkah EMPstrike

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    Shim and scoff are hardcore crafters too, just with different opinion of how it should work.

    And I went back and watched where scoff linked (and saw in the chat that I came into the stream at the end of the explanation chris gave) and he did only mention adding new masterworks and enchants and did not mention making you have more choices per attempt. My bad.

    But he also didn't mention how specialization is planned to work and said he will give the plan for it by the end of the month if they make a decision by then. So its still up in the air!

    Still simultaneously a bummer and exciting (for me) that they are gonna make the current rng more R before relieving any of it.
     
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  17. Griffler

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    I agree crafting needs some major changes, the RNG of making things needs to be tamed but as amusing as all this speculation is...

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/434462662 @ 45:50

    "I'm working on a plan also to add some other options in there, again I completely understand and agree with the frustration that some of the high-end crafters have expressed. Uhh that we need to make skill more meaningful, add choices, you know there's just a lot of stuff we need to do."

    They have done a great job lately of taking feedback from the proper people, IE those that have the most experience in what they are developing, so hopefully after this plan is developed and they start taking feedback as he has said it will come to a more desirable outcome.

    Just don't hold your breath.
     
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  18. kaeshiva

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    If I wanted int, I'd buy the low level wand with int, or - more likely scenario - I'd shop around and find another high level wand with int. . The choice of stat (which is RNG-dependent) is going to be the key decision maker even if potency is improved - not disputing that.

    But lets say in an edge case, that I need an int wand, and I need it right now, and I happen to see a lower level one - maybe I buy it and help a low level out. In those edge case scenarios, yes, maybe a lower level guy gets a sale. I don't think we should balance the whole system around that.

    In your example, your 15 str wand is what I class as "junk" except for perhaps a very particular buyer who wants strength on his wand.

    Right, that's exactly my point - I think this is how it should be.
    Potency improvements without addressing RNG isn't going to change the core dynamic -
    Its still based on luck, there's just as many unlucky low levels as lucky for whom none of this is going to make a bit of difference.

    I am in favor of moving AWAY from "lucky or unlucky" and making it more about strategic choices, time and effort invested - rather than an arbitrary dice roll. Low level crafters are subject to the same dice rolls so it isn't a compelling argument.
     
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  19. Spungwa

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    Said this in another post.

    I personally have never been against the RNG. Was not against choosing either, was against choosing for a limited specialisation - just means all serious crafter's will make alts.

    Only that I want the end solution to
    1) have CERTAINLY on the MAXIMUM price (regardless of bad rolls) of making a piece of gear with specific stats. This would help the market work, as sets a baseline for cost in materials or gold. Any RNG is just to beat that maximum cost. Don't mind that cost being high, just want it to be a KNOWN high.
    2) gear types are comparable. Eg if you do the number of options thing, that should be a percentage of total number of options. Not a fixed number. Also means it self balances when new options are added.

    Regards
    Spung
     
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  20. Daxxe Diggler

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    All I know is, when I walk into a cake shop and ask them to make me a chocolate fudge cake for a birthday party... I don't want the baker to tell me I can have a cake... but it might be vanilla with pineapple filling or it might be red velvet with vanilla icing or a red velvet with chocolate icing or a lemon meringue pie! It's all a luck of the draw!

    If the real world worked like SOTA crafting does... everyone would be out of business.

    I understand that some of you fear that being able to make exactly what you want can have negative effects. But having to be extremely lucky (regardless of your skill level) just to be able to make exactly what you want is 100 times worse. RNG makes people angry that tons of materials and lots of play hours are wasted when (about 90% of the time you end up with something you don't even want to use) and it deters people from crafting and/or even playing the game at all.

    As someone who likes to craft his own stuff and not rely on a "market" or "economy" to buy something I need anyway, I'm personally not concerned if everyone will be able to make the "best stuff". If they want it, let them gather the mats and make it themselves. That's what I do regardless. In fact, the only things I might buy would be an artifact or some kind of mob drop component that I can't just make myself.

    Which brings me to a point I've made several times in the past: Remove the RNG in crafting and add it to random dropped components. If the components used dictate the outcome of the finished product instead of random choices... then you can sit back and manufacture 50 of the best item. You need to farm the rare components (or buy them from others) first and that takes care of the challenging part. But at least this way, I can get my chocolate cake mix, creamy chocolate fudge and make the cake I want to eat without fear of ending up with a lemon meringue pie.
     
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