Some Artifacts are way too rare for how build defining they are.

Well god dmanit..... i still dont get it.... after all these posts... no one can really explain wtf this guy is really complaining about if its not the rarity or price of artis?

 

A classless system will definitely always become cookie cutter no matter what, its called the "trinity of skills". There are always 3 skills that can be maxed out to define your character; for example: tactics = crit damage, fireflies=crit damage, polearms or archery = crit damage. The trinity to build a cookie cutter crit based class. This will ALWAYS happen, no matter how to make the skill system. The patterns will emerge. You cannot change this. Same can be done for any other cookie cutter you want to build. But what this game does well is define their roles with the extra that is in the tree that you spend exp in to get the trinity. And what this game really shines in the fact that you can actually create a garbage character and a garbage deck. That is a classless system. Now the artifacts like sage's sash are pretty unique because WE CANNOT CRAFT BELTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS A CRAFTING SANDBOX.

 

No, I mean the sash of speed that drops from wisps in tartarus.

 

You almost just said it in the post above this.

The ability to trade off one Stat for another makes it much less cookie cutter.

Since that is a big deal in many people's world (OP would like to be a physically weak but powerful mage) there should be a way to do that besides a single artifact.

(I don't think anyone considers "just don't level str as a good solution.)

 

Which exactly backs up my point -- Specializations ruined this. I can no longer build up my character as I want to. Although I have a solution for that to bring to the devs.

 

Which again was my point -- I do fine in the "wrong" gear, I do fine in "lesser" gear, etc. I.e., gear does not define my build. And there are plenty of people who discuss the fact they run around in addon store gear and do just fine, too... with no bonuses.

 

Bone dry!
Acquire Virtue!

Roll up another character and let your adventure define you! Exclamation points! On your quest to find a sash of smartypants mayhaps ye find a cape of strength! What then? Would you toss it aside in rejection? Nay! Thou wouldst adorn thyself in such a treasure! Stay back foul fiends, for my muscles now cord like the Oracle's erm.. wire tube.. uhh.. kobold.. steampunk? Have at thee!

 

This isn't about gear, this is about the fact that the ability to make a really fundamental build choice for your character was packed into the gear system where it doesn't belong.

Things like "This character is a hulking brute, but not the smartest" or "This character is studied and wise, but not very quick" or "This character is lithe and fast, but lacks raw strength" are really basic characteristics you should be able to give to a character in a roleplaying game. It's simply absurd to act like there is something wrong with people wanting to be able to make characters that distinguish themselves like Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, or Legolas and Gimli, Merlin and Arthur, Conan and Subotai, Xena and Gabrielle, Arya Stark and The Hound, Aladin and Jafar. This is part of the DNA of the genre. You should absolutely be able to make characters with distinctions like that.

 

I think at this stage of development the smart design decision was to introduce this using gear than to try and retrofit it into the character build / creation.

 

So you want play a class based game like LOTR Online or WoW.. this game isn't that.

 

No, I want to be allowed to build the character I want even if what I want is a classic fantasy archetype. If it's a system that allows you to build whatever you want it fails pretty hard if it doesn't let me do that.

Why? They added the ability to dump your attunements for resistances, which creates a serious possibility for a low magic character. Is that not a step in exactly the kind of direction we're talking about here? Why not add optional skills like that for other things?

 

This game does exactly that... You can choose to level up whatever you want, in any tree, and combine those skills in whatever ways you want to do so...

 

Right, except that the cost for advancing in every individual thing goes up exponentially so there is never a tangible benefit to passing up one skill for another, since by the time you raise that other skill significantly higher the amount of XP you've saved yourself by not training the former is a negligible fraction of the total cost.

 

Different skills cost different amounts of XP to level. There's 1x, 2x, 10x, etc skills. So there is actual trade offs. For example, I can raise ranged combat from 130-135 for about the same as Eagle Eye from 115 to 120. So I have to decide which of those two I really want to dump XP in.. what's the best bang for my buck? If every skill cost the exact same amount of XP to raise, I might agree with you. But they don't.

 

What matters is that since the cost of individual skills goes up exponentially the game punishes you for focusing on just a few skills, and rewards you for spreading your XP around.

Taking Train Intelligence to 120 costs 81 million experience. Taking Train Strength and Train Dexterity combined to 100 costs 24 million experience. So the amount of XP you can save by not raising those skills doesn't even begin to cover the cost of advancing further in Train Intelligence. The way XP costs work completely craps on anyone who wants to focus their training in a single area by shutting them down with absurd costs to keep going with the thing they actually want, while everything else becomes easily affordable by comparison.

 

But many of those skills offer minimal benefit. I.e., I wear light armor. I *could* spend a lot of XP in heavy armor, but it wouldn't really serve much point, would it? Given I use a bow, it doesn't make much sense for me to spend XP in swords, polearms, shields, etc, either. So I look to where I will get the maximum benefit out of what I actually use for my build.

 

Nah. This game is "everyone is the Avatar and might as well hit the minimum easy level for everything. There is no reason to choose one thing over another, just level it all and then choose what you do with your deck."

That means we're all the same, we just field what we field at the moment.

As this became super apparent, specializations were introduced, and until magic resistence they were the only way to differentiate your actual character.

In fact, until magic resistance you literally had to level up entire trees just to not get smoked by them, even if you would never use them.

So for the most part we are all exactly the same, only time spent grinding and specialization sets us apart.

Maybe that's ok, it is unique among games in that respect. But we should at least acknowledge it.

I like the idea of putting some tradeoff masterwork / enchants in so we could differentiate without having to use one specific artifact, it would alleviate the clone feeling.

 

I like that they've created more artifacts, but it would be nice to up the drop rate since now that you have fusion, you can't find them being sold anywhere for a reasonable price. Which is also why I don't actually care about them. I can't afford one and I can still do everything I've always been able to do. So what's the purpose? To make me a hoarder? Too late, already there lol. If the idea is to truly help in us differentiating our characters, I think there is a lot more you can do besides giving us godly items. Wizard robes would be awesome. It was cruel to make that a $120k item in the telethon. Mages want to look like mages. Give us something to fight over. Give us a purpose. Like the old faction system in UO, or champ spawns. A purpose to actually use these items and roleplay our characters. Fight evil because it's taking over our actual town, not a siege that we can easily bypass. A purpose for us to build castle walls to keep out the intruders. Real immersive aspects that justify me spending those long months getting my stats up and buying insanely expensive artifacts.

 

Do that and see how much it rewards you.

 

Why not limit yourself from a RP perspective?

Firstly you do not need your numbers to be above 100 to be viable. I have Int at GM and have left Str and Dex at 80 by choice. I have about 1050 points into fire with spec at 80 I think. I have about 900ish points into life no spec. Some points into tactics for a couple of the defensive skills. Meteor at GM but fairly low attunement in Moon. My equipment is all player made, none of it crazy expensive for my play time, probably in the 10's of thousands cost wise, which I use to supplement my Int and Fire attunement. I do have a Sages Sash but removing it makes little difference. I have over 200 attunement in fire but none of this is from artifacts. I wish I had 200 int. In comparison to many these numbers are peanuts and yet I can solo UT, Tartarus zombies, Rise etc and feel very viable.

The reason the costs above GM in Int are so high is because for the average player, GM is done. You don't need anymore than that but if you want to do it well, good luck. You don't need it though.