Some Artifacts are way too rare for how build defining they are.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aetrion, Aug 24, 2019.

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  1. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    The point is and remains that the game has an insane bias toward pushing you to a generalist character. No amount of "just ignore it" will change that, and it is a massive weakness in the game because it's a turn-off for anyone who likes classic archetypes in fantasy and wants to be allowed to recreate them in this supposedly free build system.

    You could easily create a system that is biased the other way too. For example if the cost of raising any skill in the game was determined by the total number of skillpoints you have across all of your skills you'd end up with a game where the cost of raising a single magic school to 200 would be roughly equivalent to raising eight of them to 25 each. That would be just as bad, just the other way around. It would massively reward ultra specialization and punish people for wanting to create more hybrid characters.

    It's perfectly reasonable to want to see a balance between the system pushing you toward the broadest possible character and the system pushing you toward an extremely narrow one.
     
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  2. OzzyOsbourne

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    you can barely carry anything with 10 strenght.... of which you start with.... do you want to go lower than that?!?!
     
  3. OzzyOsbourne

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    that belt is nothing compared to the spider silk belt
     
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  4. OzzyOsbourne

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    But you can.... I still dont get it.... what the hell is stopping you from having 0 strenght?? NOTHING. (edit: stay at 0 train strenght = 10 strenght, and if you wear sage's sash, you will go to 0 :) )
     
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  5. Snowdog

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    I enjoy the basic systems but it seems that all the economies, that would include the drop system, while probably deeply thought out, does not work and it was broken beyond what Dev wants to fix (reminds me of UO) - imagine that). They are to committed to it so it will never get fixed. I have read that they don't really play the game so draw your own conclusions.
     
  6. Mishikal

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    That to me has always been the selling point of this game to me. I'm so utterly tired of playing games where I'm pigeon holed into a single path. I like the idea I can branch out and do different stuff, although in reality it's turned out to be a lot more complex than that as I find I'm constantly having to make trade offs.
     
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  7. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    The fact that giving yourself such an extreme weakness is not offset by allowing you to have any substantial strengths in this game. Not raising strength training to 100 saves you 12 million XP, which is a nothing when compared to the cost of even just raising train intelligence to 120.
     
  8. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    THIS! THIS THIS THIS THIS AND THIS!

    I Started playing shroud simple to please my father who actually bought the ancestors pack for me (Hey, hes retired and loves to do stuff like that, great guy!) I didn't know what I was getting into, and many things were way too complicated for me to understand what is going on, and if you read my posts, I'm usually the kind of person who really goes into detail to understand EVERYTHING I can about mechanics and stuff in a game. This game, back then, did the WORST job into helping you get into it, that was way back when a specific someone managed to inflate the economy by macroing a quest during a whole weekend simply to show the devs there was a bug with it, and that they had to get a fix for it fast (Back when there was still wipes)... The ONE SINGLE THING that kept me from leaving and not looking back was the way I could build EVERYTHING without compromise.

    This game allows you to build your character around what you want to do, when you want to do it : Want to do wave clears, Get your mage gear and start burning fools! Want to fight big bosses, pull out your bow and leather armor, and start shooting at it! You are with a group and a tank might help the newbies who just joined your guild? Grab a full plate and a shield and taunt away! And you know what is the best about this? YOU DONT EVEN NEED TO CONSTANTLY MENU TO SWAP CHARACTERS! You don't even need to build multiple characters to do that, just share your experience around!

    You aren't being punished if you invest more experience into a single spot instead of moving it around, you are simply specializing yourself even further than the specialization concepts!

    Here's a compromise that could actually work though, as someone who talked about warding passives actually had a good idea :
    Create a few options that would do exactly what OP is asking :
    • New Innate skills that allow to increase a stat in exchange for the other two (Trains Strength, drops Dex and Int), or exchange one for one (for people who wants to train two stats)
    • New enchants/masterworks which will do the same, Boosts one stat in exchange for the others (comparable to some artifacts like the hoods or the sages sash)
    • 3 day blessings which once again would do the same thing.
    By having it this way, those who still want to train all 3 can, meanwhile those who only want 1 or 2 can invest their points in the right way but be penalized in exchange. This would not only keep the actual system like it is, but allow some people who want to be more specific in their builds to have the option to!

    That is the best I can offer in terms of compromises of the system most of us have been sold on, otherwise a HUGE chunk of the community would be VERY upset.

    I hope this idea suits you @Aetrion
     
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  9. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I think something over looked here is the time it took most these guys fully decked out to get where they are. Some of us with these high end artifacts have been working hard for years to get the wealth to afford the luxury to get them. Everything in time as I say. Build your wealth then you too will have these luxuries.
     
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  10. Aetrion

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    I've said a few times that letting people specialize more by using skills similar to wardings would be a good way to do it.

    I'm not asking for the game to become class based or anything like that, I just want people who enjoy the classic fantasy archetypes to be able to build toward them intuitively through character training instead of locking them behind extremely rare gear that is made even rarer by fusion systems and item degredation.

    This isn't about breaking the game for the people who like it the way it is, it's about acknowledging that the vast majority of people in the possible audience for a game like this are heavily invested in archetypal characters to the point where a class based system isn't a dealbreaker for them, but not being given an opportunity to define characters by trading off strengths and weaknesses is. Excluding all those people just isn't a good move.
     
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  11. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    Artifacts are not always the best, I have builds that done use artifacts that can do just as much as a person with them. Its as you said trading off strengths and weaknesses to get what you want. it is only a very few really rare items that have some power that some seek. Just like tamers they want the artifacts to augment the pets. Everyone has a chance to get these in time. Time is what it took many of us to get all our gear and or make it. I do though think that they need to balance more which they have started in R69 to start to bring crafted gear by GM+ closer to that of artifacts. Which will get you what you seek soon enough.
     
  12. Aetrion

    Aetrion Avatar

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    This game competes for people's time with literally every other form of entertainment available to them, including thousands of other games. It's not reasonable to gate a lot of the most critical build options for many people behind a significant time investment. Endgame gear should be about incremental power, not about holding the things that most people would like to be able to choose at character creation hostage.
     
  13. Vladamir Begemot

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    Imagine an Enchantment that gives you +3 Int, - 6 Str.

    That's the simplest way I can say it.

    (Artifacts were never supposed to outclass crafting. Just a reminder, as that seems to have been forgotten.)
     
  14. Superbitsandbob

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    I don't disagree with you. A long time ago some people argued that there should be caps, something akin to UO. It just wasn't what the devs wanted though and it is far to late now to change, even though you can see that it means creating new content is difficult because who do you create it for? The level ranges and capability of players is so broad and when I am running around the open world map there appears to be a lot of soloers as well.

    Through all of this you could still create the character you want though. I know you want the system to force you into choices but I don't ever see it happening so you need to do it.
     
  15. Spungwa

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    That ship sailed a long time ago. It seemed the shouting for better loot drowned out the player crafted gear should be the best gear.

    My only hope of this being reversed is that they hugely expand the tier 3 component drops in the game. But I guess it is quicker to add a new artifact than add tier 3 components with the salvaging and new recipes.

    To the original post, I have never found artifacts to be necessary to be a viable build. To be optimal, yes, but viable, no. Being viable is much more to do with deck design.


    Regards
    Spung
     
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  16. Aetrion

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    It isn't about just being viable. Simply chasing whatever works best is always viable. Being able to both do what you want and still have it work is what games should try to balance though.
     
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  17. Jason_M

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    I wonder what kind of über characters people play. The longer I play and the more that I invest into my character, the *fewer* variations I run. I can buff up to 280 strength, but my intelligence is like... 70?

    I want to be a super, unstoppable force of nature, but once you get into the high end of playing, you specialize and focus. I'm a "paladin" by playstyle and that's what I play. At lower levels I would sometimes switch to a magic deck or a rogue deck, but that just isn't an advantage anymore. In theory it sounds super duper, but when each new level of my core skill costs millions of experience, I only raise what's needed. I just don't want to spend a month on a tangent.

    Here's a real example. Last night I went to the petrified zombie wave battle room. As a pure melee person, that's a serious problem. So, like an über space warrior, I put on Immolation. But my Immolation is only GM, my fire magic innates are in the 90s, and my intelligence is only in the 70s. I was doing single to low double digits in damage to mobs with thousands of HP each. It helped a tiny bit, but über space warrior I was not.

    Perhaps the dissatisfied folks will feel more in character with time. Or they will sell their souls to UT to get 150 in every skill but only use a small number of them at any given time :confused::D

    My money is on the former. :) I also expect that concern about build-defining artifacts will also wane.
     
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  18. Violet Ronso

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    The thing is, especially in a place like the petrified zombie room, you simply need to swap some gear around. With GMs in RoF, Immolation, meteor shower, the fire innates, Fireball and a few points around the fire tree, you can start doing triple digits damage with no problem, you add enlightenment at GM and put some gear (5k a piece at Elronds right now, most cost me 10k before his price reduction), and you are near 200 attunement and 150 intelligence, and that is more than enough!

    Usually this game simply asks for a small gear swap and you are good to go, no artifacts necessary, and honestly the stat increase from your skills becomes negligible at some point, you need to branch out with good gear.
     
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  19. Vladamir Begemot

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    The Avatar has returned, and this is his /her true form across thousands of bodies! Rejoice!

    Unless you can't stand the idea of aoes being the point of the game.
     
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  20. Mishikal

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    The Avatar is all powerful, thus must master everything! RAWR! :) (Which is exactly how I wanted to play, so no complaint here)
     
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