Sorry not again but I have to re stretch goal remedy

Discussion in 'Archived Topics' started by majoria70, Jan 8, 2015.

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  1. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    LOL Tahru I understand your wanting the ellves in and the reason for it of course. I am truly hoping for a complete overhaul to the entire stretch goal system that makes all stretch goals doable.
    Each person has their own wishes for stretch goals or multiple wishes. It's easier to not single them out. We would be here forever.

    I just want a solution for us for all of them and also a guarantee that we are not getting a rare statuette or house pet for something we desire in game because the development team does not think
    we truly want it because of the stretch goal $'s committed so far.

    I want to appeal to the Dev team to please give us a better system or allow us to create that. Whether it be that we purchase our mounts, pack horses/llamas, boats etc on the addin store for prices that will fund the stretch goals
    or another idea. and also if that happens that people who already spent money on a stretch goal are allowed to put that money toward purchasing in the add in store if that is the option to achieving the stretch goal.
     
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  2. majoria70

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    Also I do believe that not only housing can fund this game as has been the norm up to this point. That is a pipe dream, housing has been done and will continue of course,
    but what about our favorite other things, boats, pack animals, horses and I'm sure we could think of a zillion little things. If these things had the same exposure as housing
    and player owned towns who knows perhaps we could meet these goals, ya think;). We are being held back by this. Lets get it changed.
     
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  3. Joviex

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    Plus I already pledged for something.

    Diverting my pledge now, as a bootstrap for some other development, is not akin to a fraudulent practice, it is fraudulent.

    We call that bait and switch. Especially this far along into development.

    A new kickstarter is the best idea. I just don't think you are going to hit the (inflated) levels they are looking for to hit those goals.

    It is even more obvious, after SL's statements, they didn't care to press the issue of the stretch goals, and just wanted to satisfy the "crying" about the lack of them, so they could focus on the first episode overall.
     
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  4. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Yes Joviex I was disappointed at that statement on the article also. That is what made me start this post. We can have another house, another cape, another shiny item to buy hmmm.
    I would trade many things for stretch goals to to have a chance. I just don't think the stretch goal system we have in place is the way to go.
     
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  5. Joviex

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    Normalized, and the median combined with money spent, gives me the ordering below:


    24.93 Placement
    23.11 Pack Animals
    20.88 Elves
    16.83 Mounts
    14.25 Boats
     
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  6. Spoon

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    For an easy suggestion that could boost things temporarily:
    Add a unique decoration item to all the "Complete Packages" that you can only get with the "Complete Package".
    Make these unique decoration items something which is a unique reskin of something already existing and appropriate.


    But for the shop itself let's hop over to the page itself.
    The biggest turn off for me is this sentence:
    "If a stretch goal is met, all of the items in its respective category will receive additional functionality related to the stretch goal."
    I will not spend money on a stretch goal as long as that sentence is there. It says plainly that if the stretch target is not met before they implement the feature then the items will not get any additional functionality. So buying in early is punished, while buying in late is rewarded.
    Suggestion:
    Make it clear in the text and by an official announcement that when one of these goals finally are implemented then all stretch store items will get the additional funcitonality regardless if the target was met.


    Let's go through one of these goals to look for suggestions:

    Admiral's Hat
    $20 for a hat. Unknown functionality if met. Only worth it if the function is a major one. First time I looked at this I thought that the Hat was a clever ruse to hike the value of the package, ie, its not meant to be purchased on its own but rather give value to the package, but then I checked the package only had a $10 discount and realised it wasn't clever at all.
    Suggestion:
    A) Define the functionality. (For instance, "Wearing the Admiral's Hat will increase damage caused by your ship").
    B) Add an immediate feature even if not met, otherwise a hat will never sell on its own outside the package. (For instance, a unique emote - which for dev opt is a variation on an existing one).

    Admiral's Outfit (male) & Admiral's Outfit (female)
    $20 each. Outfits are what some folks pay for so this should be a good one, but $20 for something that is missing its characteristic headwear isn't really that appealing. Unknown functionality. This one I can see people buying just because its an outfit. I find it strange that they have a male and a female version as seperate purchases, it devalues the bundle, when all clothing so far in the game can be worn by both genders.
    Suggestion:
    A) Have a smaller bundle with Outfit+Hat+spyglass for $50.
    B) Don't seperate the genders it ruins the complete Package
    C) Define the functionality (for instance, "Wearing the Admiral's Outfit will decrease the damage done to your ship").

    Rowboat House Decoration & Longboat House Decoration
    $10 each. This is actually a really good bargain; IF and ONLY IF the stretch goal is met. Ten bucks for a boat is a good goal. This should sell. But having both as seperate items isn't good for the package.
    Suggestion:
    If it had been "$10 your selection of boat, chose between rowboat C& longboat" then it would have been a sweet thing. Then some would have to buy it twice if you want it all, but for those who don't it doesn't ruin the package.

    Anchor House Decoration
    $10. For unknown functionality. I have a hard time seeing the market for this one. The clothing and boats I get, but the anchor is just strange. If it had been an item that I could use it would have been fine, like "Admiral's Desk" or something.
    Suggestion:
    A) Define the functionality (for instance, "Having the anchor onboard your ship lets you stop the ship immediately. Possibly avoiding danger.")
    B) Add some more decoration to this for your home. Like a miniature ship (re-use of gfx asset just different scale & repoly)

    Spyglass
    $20. This is the only stretch goal item that I have actually considered. This because its functionality is clearly defined and fully functional even if the stretch goal isn't met. Which is strange, since it means that no added functionality is given if it does meet...
    Suggestion:
    Doesn't need much sugar coating but:
    Add some extra functionality 'related to boats' if the stretch goal is met. (For instance "Will highlight reefs") This since the zoom will otherwise not be a naval feature but rather a zoom anywhere one better used anywhere but the sea.

    Boats Complete Package
    $10 off, but the outfits do not complement each other, since if you are only going to be playing one of the genders then you'd be better off buying everything but the other gender's outfit so that is $20 "wasted". Also the Rowboat and Longboat do not complement each other, if you got one boat you don't really need the other, that is another $10 "wasted". So I have a hard time seeing any people outside collectors buying the complete package when picking the parts you actually want is cheaper, say one outfit+hat+one ship+anchor+spyglass is $80 not $100.
    Suggestion:
    Make a seperate "outfit package" for $50 which is one Outfit+Hat+Spyglass, and add a defined bonus feature if you wear all three when goal is met. (For instance, "Wearing a full Admiral set increases ship speed at sea").
    Make a smaller bundle with 1outfit+1ship+hat+anchor @$75.
    Then add something unique, like a mini-ship decoration, to the complete package to make those who already pledged for the complete set happier about the change.
     
  7. majoria70

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    Oh spoon you mentioned one of my biggest irritations too. The part about what happens if the stretch goal isn't met. I'd rather not even have the featureless item then. Just put the money to good use or better yet don't do this stretch goal system. Thanks for giving us your terrific thoughts on this.
     
  8. Myrcello

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    Sometimes you read the best responses somewhere else and you do not have to write it yourself!

    So these 2 posts i did read about Stretch Goals and i think they say it all.

    Articel 1 Think before you Stretch

    Think Before You Stretch

    Yancey Strickler · August 13, 2013 · 39 comments
    Over time we’ve seen a growing number of creators adding “stretch goals” — unofficial targets beyond a project's funding goal, with promises of new rewards or other incentives if they are reached. Stretch goals are seen as a way to keep pledges coming in after a project’s funding goal has been reached. But are stretch goals a good idea?
    All-or-nothing funding is simple and clear: a project has a single goal, and backers support the project in its pursuit of that goal. Stretch goals muddy the waters. What if someone got in early and helped a project reach its funding goal, but now the creator is focused on stretch goals? What if someone backs a project for a stretch goal-related reward, and that goal isn’t met? Both are bad experiences for backers.
    For a typical stretch goal a creator will promise to release their game in additional formats or add extra functions if certain funding goals are hit. But expanding a project’s scope can change the creative vision and put the whole project at risk. We’ve seen stretch goals leave some projects overwhelmed, over-budget, and behind schedule.
    As many creators and backers have learned from experience, often what seems like "extra" money isn't extra at all. If a project has a funding goal of $10,000 but raises $1 million, does that mean its creator got an "extra" $990,000? Not at all. More money means more backers and rewards to fulfill — and less margin for error.
    Many Kickstarter projects end up significantly overfunded, and creators often use those funds to improve the project's end product. More funding might mean higher-quality materials and other improvements that thank backers with a better-made thing. For other creators overfunding means the project turns a profit. Both are great outcomes. Stretch goals, on the other hand, trade long-term risk for a short-term gain. Tread carefully.
    What should a creator do if their project is funded with significant time on the clock? The same thing every creator should do: make an unforgettable experience for their backers. Use updates to share the creative process as it happens. Make a connection that goes beyond funding. Money gets spent, but a strong community will last forever.

    Artikel Number 2: Kickstarter Lesson Stretch Goals

    http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-11-stretch-goals/

    Kickstarter Lesson #11: Stretch Goals


    Feb 14, 2013



    I don’t know if the first Kickstarter project that had stretch goals, but in the last year or so they’ve pretty much become a standard addition to most successful Kickstarter projects. In addition to providing better value for your backers, having visible stretch goals can actually increase the chances of your project funding in the first place.
    The Purpose of Stretch Goals
    Stretch goals are things that you’ll add to most of the reward levels at no additional cost if you overfund your project. If you set out to raise $10,000 and you raise $15,000, you might give everyone an extra marshmallow, a bonus short story, or promo cards for your game.
    Stretch goals are closely tied to your funding goal. Your funding goal should be the bare minimum you need to create a minimal viable product. Thus your stretch goals are ways to expand upon and improve that core product, but if you don’t reach them, you can still deliver your passion project to your backers.
    The reason stretch goals work so well is (a) they encourage backers to pledge more (especially when they check in on the project at the very end to see that they’re $X pledge gets them much more than they originally thought), and (b) they encourage backers to share your project with other people. The more stretch goals you meet, the more everyone wins.


    The Pitfalls of Stretch Goals
    I can sum these up in a few points:
    1. Make sure your stretch goals add real value to your product.
    2. Make sure your stretch goals don’t cause you to lose money or delay the project.
    3. Make sure your stretch goals are given to every backer who receives your product (it’s confusing and insulting to backers if you have a few reward levels where they get the game, but they have to pledge even more to get the game and the stretch goals).
    The Golden Goose
    I would highly suggest that your project have at least one “golden goose” stretch goal at 400 or 500% funding. This stretch goal is something that adds a huge amount of value to every backer. This goal really whets the appetites of backers and gives them something to strive for as a group–not only does it help your funding up to that point (even if you don’t reach the goal), but it creates a sense of community around the project.
    A good example is TMG’s Ground Floor Kickstarter campaign. At $75,000 in funding (500%), TMG gave every backer an extra game called Skyline. That’s a huge reward–two well-designed games for the price of one. Not only did it help Ground Floor raise $75,000, but every backer who checked out the project after that level was reached knew for sure that they were getting two games, so an additional $38,000 was raised after that goal was reached.
    A word of caution that ties into Pitfall #2: Make sure you aren’t losing money per unit if you reach your golden goose stretch goal (taking shipping, art and design, and manufacturing into consideration). Calculate costs based on the assumption that you will meet that goal. And then do everything you can to actually meet it!
    Theories on the Visibility of Stretch Goals
    There are a few different theories on how you should reveal–or unveil–your stretch goals. The two overarching keys are to know exactly what your stretch goals can be before you launch the project, and remain flexible during the project to add more stretch goals or change the dollar amounts if you can afford it.
    • Only share one stretch goal at a time: This is a strategy employed extremely well by Dice Hate Me games, which currently has the game Compounded on Kickstarter. Backers have a very concrete goal to focus on, and no one is the wiser if they don’t reach the stretch goals that they haven’t revealed.
    • Share multiple stretch goals, but not their funding amounts: This strategy, which I believe I’ve seen Greater Than Games employ for Sentinels of the Multiverse, whets backer appetites for future stretch goals, but allows the creator to remain flexible in adjusting the funding amounts as needed.
    • Share all stretch goals and funding amounts: This is what I did with Viticulture (as seen by the image on this post), except that the goals changed over time as I reduced thresholds and added new goals in between. I think this method can make backers really excited about future goals, and as long as you remain flexible to reduce the funding amounts needed for the stretch goals, there’s no harm in sharing those numbers.
    If I did it again, I might do a mix of those three strategies. Leave some things a mystery, but let backers know up front how greener the grass can be on the other side of the original funding goal.



    Different Categories of Stretch Goals
    As you can see by the image to the right, we did something a little different with Viticulture. Our stretch goals were more like milestones, as some weren’t connected to funding. I incorporated milestones based on Facebook Likes to encourage people to spread the world on the largest social network, and I had milestones based on the number of backers to show that the project was more than about raising money for a game–it was about building a community around a game. I get excited when I see a lot of stretch goals on a project, and I think many of my backers shared the same enthusiasm.
    I did learn a few things from the Facebook Like milestones, though. First, there was some discussion on Reddit about whether those milestones encouraged people to Like something that they didn’t even know if they actually likedit or not. I think that’s somewhat fair. In the future I might make it clearer that people should only Like the project if they actually like it. It’s a little nitpicky, but that’s what Reddit is for.
    Second, my original Like milestones (which unlocked hidden reward levels) were counterproductive. There’s no good reason to hide reward levels. Plus, I set the Like goals so low that we met them all the first day, which took the fun out of anticipating the next goal. In the future if I have Facebook Like milestones, I’ll probably use them to reveal art from the game, with maybe 1,000 Likes adding something of real value.


    If you read both articles you can make yourself a opinion in regards to the Stretch Goals. I made mine.

    I do find it very disappointing that you can´t see the Kickstarter Reached Stretch Goals on the Homepage. They are not easy to find.. But they should be easy to find in my opinion.

    So i post them here:

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Drocis the Devious

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    Yep. Although in their defense, it wouldn't have been wise to do anything else (other than perhaps make the stretch goals more appealing - which I've been saying since day one of the stretch goals).
     
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  10. Drocis the Devious

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    After we see encumbrance in game, we'll all feel more connected to the pack mule goal. :)
     
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  11. Ice Queen

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    Since housing is very important to a lot of us, and some of the stretch goals as well.House add-ons could include 1 stretch goal of your choice. Houses are just added revenue anyways.

    To the house add ons offered in the store, I would give a choice of 1 stretch goal item added with each house type you buy, and a portion of the house sales go toward that stretch goal you picked. Other than having another kickstarter this would be a way to get people to pledge for the stretch goals and give them a reason to buy into it, and people that don't know about the stretch goals since they're tucked away like harry potter in his cubby under the stairs lol, would see them.

    Like for example the tower village home could include one of the stretch goal items of your choice, and $10 of that goes toward the stretch goal of your choice and you get the stretch goal item too.

    More house sales = more revenue, more house sales/revenue = stretch goals more likely to be met :)
     
  12. Roper Docholiday

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    i have mentioned this before. but sincve were rehashing the subject ill post them on this thread as well

    we just went through the holidays many of us have kids that we spent our money on vs paying for inactive functions in the game. i do have every intention of funding several of these streatch goals but not at this time. the stretch goals have an never ending date to buy them. all i have to do is watch and if one is getting close i will buy it before it is met. im sure im not the only one in this game that has not only r/l things that take precedance over buy digital items.

    im currently paying for a knights package. 800 $. i am paying for 2 more accounts as well (my sons and my daughters). at this time increasing thier pledge value is more valuable than purchasing strectch goal items. and thier is a time limit on those.

    when it comes to stretch goals them selves. i truly belive after release 14 or 15 dont remeber which one it is that encumberance is released into the game that guess what people will suddenly start buying the pack animal stretch goal. thier will actually be a need for them in the game at that time. sorry many people will not purchase something without an need for such item.

    horses. that stretch goal more than likely will be met shortly after the the novia map is opened. if we do a comparison it takes literly forever to get from the top of the lost veil to the bottom of the lost veil. and that map i supposed to be very small compared to novia. so those pesky instances adding furtor travel time will facililtate the horses to game. but without a need for the item many people will play along and enjoy the early access to the game.

    my personal faverite the boats. : the issues with this. i want the house boat that will be able to sail the world. being able to use that anchor decoration so i can park my boat far away from everyone else. but without a means to get to land without reparking your boat or getting to your boat without reparking it at your dock really limits the functionality of this item. crusing your house boat for fishing while initally seems cool you have all your stuff no weight limits etc long run you still have to take you boat back to shore

    the elves as a playable race is exciting. however what bonus do the elves get what weakness do they have its undefined. i do not plan to play a race or pay for one that in essance could be the same as the human form. i personally dont pay for pretty pixes in any game. or at least not real cash. rares and such in a game that can be gotten for gold sure everyone will but to pay hard cash just for a pixel change and of one that does not have set stats not me. (hence why i dont pay for the admariles outfits hard cash for an decoration of no use)

    my second faverite one flexable house placement. something that almost every person in the game wants at least those of us that are property owners will. gives us greater decorating capabilities. but like people have said before were missing other key items in the game such as the key system to rent out places in the game and many more features. the garding shed will it effect gardning? thats a great question i hope it does but i would like to see that feature added to the game first.

    i have herd some people say when the game goes live 100k to 300k people will buy and play this game. if we use even the 100k number that would mean that we have over 1/2 our player base playing this game now i highly doubt it. id would say we are at 1/4 of what will play this game when it goes live if not lower. so these stretch goals to be met with only 1/4 of the players the game will have is unrealstic. the burden of the current comunity to fund those stretch goals with out the rest of the player base would be unfair. cause even if we trully had 144k players right now which i know for a fact some of those are inactive, no longer playing and even some probably wont be back. your asking to small of a comunity to fund to large of an add on section to the game.

    talking money here are some facts that we know. 5,519,258 has been raised by 144,041 players. this equals to a little over 40 dollars a person. the math dosnt quite add up to me. i know i paid 800 dollars my self not counting all the player owned towns and etc. the stretch goals to meet them all is 1,400,000. now i know some people have allready donated so that total is alot less. in my personal opinion we have im not going to say we capped our potential on getting money out of who is supporting the game currently but were probably pretty dog gone close.
     
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  13. Gubbles

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    It's interesting that none of the original $2.25 mil goals made it as current stretch goals. Also interesting how many features are included in the $250,000 price tag in comparison to the ones we have now. We certainly don't see stretch goals loaded up like that today!
     
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  14. Drocis the Devious

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    Actually that has been defined (but is of course subject to change).

    All races get what's called an affinity bonus. Last I heard, Humans currently get a slight bonus to Heavy Armor (this used to be Medium Armor), Sun Magic, and Alchemy. While Elves get Ranged Combat, Lunar Magic, and Forestry.
     
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  15. Drocis the Devious

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    I think the original stretch goals were made prior to Darkstarr being here. I'm sure once he actually sat down and looked at time and money verses resources and expectations he quickly said "OMG!" Hence the stretch goal store being "We'll give you stuff we planned to make in Episode II anyway, if you give us 1.4 million dollars. :)
     
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  16. Gubbles

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    I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I have to believe RG has some business sense. Also, if it is like you describe we'll be lucky to get the game that was promised during the kickstarter.
     
  17. Drocis the Devious

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    Well, I don't know anything about anything. But that doesn't stop me from having an opinion based on what little I do know. :) [Candidate for quote of the day!]

    I'm sure RG has business sense, but that's not really his job. His job, as I understand it, is to dream. Darkstarr's job, as I understand it, is to stay awake. The great thing about the kickstarter goals was that it was all a dream then, and no one was really awake to say "yeah we can't do that".

    But you're right, we will be lucky if we get the game that was promised to us. I don't mean that in a negative way though. If you look at the dev team, they're working 17 hours days, they're working weekends, they're trying their best to create what was promised. It's going to take a long time at this rate, but several of them have said privately and publicly that the plan is to be doing this for many many years. So yeah, I think we're lucky.
     
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  18. rune_74

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    I haven't seen the list of stretch goals in awhile. It is interesting to note that not many of those have been actioned as of yet.
     
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  19. Browncoat Jayson

    Browncoat Jayson Legend of the Hearth

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    The stretch store concept was great at a high level, but it just didn't work in practice. What it DID allow is for us to see what the ranking priorities are for stretch goals, and help raise more than $40,000 toward SotA development.

    If I was in charge of this, I'd announce an end of the current stretch goal store, say 5/31/15, and that it would be replaced with new stretch goals in the near future. The current items in the stretch goal store would only be available though the end of the stretch goal store, so have people buy them now.

    On 6/1, make all of the stretch goal items unavailable, and work up an announcement for that week's Update that said what order the goals were, by percentage completed.

    In the 6/19 Update, announce that the new stretch goals would be going live as of 7/1/2015. The new stretch goal store would go live with limited quantity items that have better value (things like waterfront boat houses, unique from those in pledges, but limited to only a hundred or so total). All items would have use even if the goal is not met, but would have additional functionality if the goal is (i.e., horses would be horses, you could use them for labor, you just could not ride them or equip a pack saddle unless the goal was reached; boat houses are houses, but could be sailed when the goal was reached; etc). The goals would be clearly stated (i.e., upon hitting $100,000 in stretch goal funds, pack animals will be implemented; at $350,000, horse mounts; etc).

    Launch the new store on 7/1, which would look much more like the Add-On Store with a single bar across the top for the stretch goal progress. Then, ADD new items as others become sold out, to keep the store vibrant and bring in new funds. (Both the Add-On Store and Stretch Goal Store have become very stagnant.)

    If this didn't work 6 months down the line, try something else. The one thing we have with our community is the ability to change. Don't just accept failure; FIX IT!
     
  20. Proteus Tempest

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    Majoria70, thanks for starting this topic and everyone you have great ideas.......and I see this is the problem. Well its not really a problem BUT getting all of it first and not last IS the problem.

    We have lets say for sayings sake 15 stretch goals. That's too many. 144,000 Early Backers (GOD bless you) are divided amongst 15 stretch goals and that severely stretches our money in 15 different directions. Therefore we don't meet our stretch goal and Portalarium does not get the cash they need to hire extra people to help with the project. (sighs) This is the same talk that happens in every MMO when it comes to content for the game vs desired content. Portalarium and every other MMO maker has to create the story line and the quest to go with it or the population will get bored and leave. We all know this and have heard it over and over. We should be pro's by now.

    The question is, what one thing would we all spend money on that would catapult Portalarium into a production frenzy and then its advertising of some form to inform the Early Backers that this awesome item they WOULD buy is available?

    I have my ideas I have posted else where but I guess I am helping the problem by creating segregation of a form when we need to come together as a player base and support the game we are in anticipation of.

    Myrcello posted something I had no idea existed and my eyes popped when I saw that Portalarium has a Weather Changing system in mind. Oh how awesome! I've have always wanted that in a game. However our stretch goal system is getting very long and to accomplish all of this in the amount of time we want to see it Portalarium needs lots of cash. Oodles and oodles of cash and our cash is going in separate directions. :(

    I'm sure of one thing. With Richard Garriotts past track record in game building we can be sure that anything we see as a stretch goal WILL be done. How fast is the question. Mr. Garriott is not going to start this project just to half ass it or he will look really really bad. I have confidence.

    So in my opinion we need to figure out what ONE thing we can concentrate on that all people would buy (and Portalarium will make) thus creating revenue and we should be concentrating on creating revenue for Portalarium 1st for the sake of game development.

    What could that one item be that all will buy? What did all players work towards getting in UO would be a good thing to figure out and we might just have our answer.
     
    Lord Baldrith, majoria70 and Tahru like this.
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