Dismiss Notice
This Section is READ ONLY - All Posts Are Archived

SOTA Map

Discussion in 'Release 40 Dev+ Feedback Forum' started by 2112Starman, Mar 23, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,613
    Likes Received:
    7,989
    Trophy Points:
    165
    This is actually an issue with SOTA map, I looked into it pretty heavy last week (before Q40 and seeing the mini-map). Dont get me wrong, I absolutely love SOTA map and use it all the time but there are sections in there that require you to pay to use it and that includes getting your PoT in it. You have to pay $10 for it. Now, normally thats not an issue and I have planned on doing this anyways before Q40 came out but now I think the Devs have a real issue. To get my PoT listed in SOTA map for everyone to see *IN GAME* I (anyone) have to pay a third party person to use it even after I already paid Port for my pledge and my PoT. As I said this is not a super big issue for *me* but it may be for many others and actually opens up some real legal issues that they need to think about. Im also concerned about the longevity of building into SOTA a third party app that at any time may up and poof if the creator decided to quit. They really need to think about actually integrating this in game.

    So when I zone into a PoT, you get the "no map" error and to get a map in there we have to pay them $10.
     
    Sir Frank and Lockey2 like this.
  2. Lockey2

    Lockey2 Avatar

    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    830
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Female
    Only other thing I would add will be making the overall size a little smaller. Liking it so far. Will consider the 10$.
     
  3. Sean Silverfoot

    Sean Silverfoot Avatar

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    7,257
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hudson Valley area of NY
    Where in your pledge did it say you get a map of every PoT in the game?
    Where in your PoT purchase does it say you get a map of every PoT?

    Jacob has spent over 3 years developing this. No way is Port going to put the time and money in to recreate something your self.

    As was pointed out elsewhere, perhaps they can toggle the database to just show the template with default banker and town crier. And those who want customized maps can go for it. Basic templates honestly aren't worth much in this use IMO.

    What I don't get is why someone wouldn't want to do everything to advertise their PoT to others. Including a great customized map by the owner goes a long way IMO. One spends hindreds/thousands for a town and doesn't want to spend $10? *shrugs*

    Again all IMHO. But Port has no mandate to provide these PoT maps and I think you pointing it out as a possible legal issue doesn't make sense.
     
    Cordelayne likes this.
  4. Sean Silverfoot

    Sean Silverfoot Avatar

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    7,257
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hudson Valley area of NY
    So you know, right now I think it's just not eveytown has been added to sotamap database for this. I get the same error for my town. Yet mine is paid for and has been since the start of SOTAMAP.
     
    Alley Oop likes this.
  5. Umuri

    Umuri Avatar

    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1,828
    Trophy Points:
    63
    The above arguments, including whether Jacob deserves to be paid (which he does) are irrelevant to the discussion. Whether it was or was not mentioned in the pledge does not affect the morality/ethics of paygating any feature. If portalarium had put the map together themselves and said "POT owners must pay portalarium $10 to be listed" the complaint would have the same validity.

    Whether they can or would spend money, is irrelevant to whether it is valid for Portalarium to force them to pay up for a sanctioned, in-game feature.

    They do not have a mandate to provide maps. However they do have a mandate to provide features equally (or else they are pay to win), and therefore any pay-gating of the map interface, whether money goes to jakub or portalarium, breaks that promise and is therefore P2W. If you have to fork over USD to get your vendor/town listed on the map, that's p2w.


    With that said.

    I personally think jakub deserves to be paid for his work. But Portalarium profitting off it and forcing users to foot the bill is not how to do it. If portalarium wants to pay Jakub for his data, that's between him and portalarium(and they should). By doing this, he's saved them a lot of work. If you want to use someones work, you license/pay them for it.

    However, I'm super concerned with how much data this widget offers up to SotaMap and it's possibility as an infection vector.
    Even if we assume Jakub has it locked down and it is unassailable(which is a cat/mouse game), it still is giving up all our private data to a 3rd party server not under portalariums control or staff.
    Just from my testing today, the following data is offered up, at minimum, while using the map:
    What IP is logged into the game.
    When they are online (connection is open when they load in and isn't closed until they close sota). - Hopefully a bug, connection should be terminated/reopened every usage.
    Everytime they change scenes/reload.- Hopefully a bug, connection should be terminated/reopened only on usage. This works even with the map closed
    What scene they change to.

    Could be more, i'm still working on digging into the actual data talk between the two.


    From this, that means sotamap knows who is on, where they are, and how long they've been there. This is a PKs wet dream.
    In addition, it would not take much cross-referencing of data to start mapping IPs to individual players. This could even have the unintended side effect of revealing who has alts and what their alts are.

    I am not making a character judgement on Jakub on whether he will. I am saying I am uncomfortable with this data being shared as an in-game feature to a server that isn't portalarium control and staff.

    At minimum the map needs to be manually turned on in options (and have an eula/disclaimer listing what you're sending to sotamap.com), and if that option is never turned on it should never open a connection to sotamap.

    In addition, to avoid the allegations of P2W, they need an option to give a way to update POTs or houses/vendors without giving up money (whether to port or 3rd party), and without requiring registration (Which gives up emails, user/pass, IPs) to a 3rd party.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
    uhop, Chatele, scroda and 1 other person like this.
  6. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,613
    Likes Received:
    7,989
    Trophy Points:
    165
    This Sean, this!
     
  7. 2112Starman

    2112Starman Avatar

    Messages:
    3,613
    Likes Received:
    7,989
    Trophy Points:
    165
    It is a staple of the game PERIOD that there be a mini-map. I thought I placed enough terminology in there to avoid people being insulted by the topic. Again, I like SOTA map and I was planning on paying for it to build my PoT. I really don't know where to go with you about the legal issue, with Port as a legitimate business integrating a third party tool into the application. That is pretty logical.

    What is SOTA map backed by? Is in in the cloud, on someones home computer? Is it in a AAAA data-center so that it has 99.9999% up-time? If it goes down, will I get a 404? What kind of bandwidth does it have, its been slugish for me in the past... Does it have redundant internet connections? Lets say 1 million people are playing this game and they all open up the mini-map. How secure is the web site, is it using SLL (depreciated). What happens if Im on a network that allows me to play SOTA but blocks that site due to something like CIPA. etc.. etc.. etc...

    Im simply stating that this could be an issue to think about.
     
  8. Umuri

    Umuri Avatar

    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1,828
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Also here's another interesting tidbit I hadn't thought of (your comment about legal got me thinking):

    Jakub is free to use sotamap, because his use is (arguably) noncommercial. Although i'm sure someone could try to argue that the paygating of pots is commercial.
    Portalarium definitely cannot use sotamap in a noncommercial capacity.

    Which leads to some interesting problems with some of the art assets that Sotamap uses have rules against commercial use without contacting the author. The code assets all look fine though.

    So it's a question of transient commercial-usage by portalarium through jakub. Which at least as far as my limited knowledge, is still commercial usage of the original asset and needs approval.

    I doubt this will be a big issue, I'm sure it just means jakub/portalarium have to send a few emails and give some credits to allow this commercial usage. Just that's the only "legal" thing i could see portalarium running afoul of by this move.
     
  9. Sean Silverfoot

    Sean Silverfoot Avatar

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    7,257
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hudson Valley area of NY
    We'll just have to wait and see how Port handles it. The maps are too good not to use. Being that most of the PoT towns are 'dynamic" and subject to constant change of housing etc. SOTAMAP seems ideal as I see really don't see them having the time and resources to do their own.
     
  10. Umuri

    Umuri Avatar

    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    1,828
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Agreed! I was estatic to see it. I was hoping they gave jakub some licensing deal for his data/formats, and they were going to dump it into the client and have it render locally. Even the few minor legal things are easy to fix (Swap out a few tiny assets).

    Or even just portalarium mirroring sotamap onto one of their own servers and controlling it.
     
    Chatele and Sean Silverfoot like this.
  11. Arjac

    Arjac Avatar

    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Poland
    It's a bug which will be fixed as described here: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...-pot-new-britannian-market.83621/#post-778542

    You do NOT have to pay anything. I gave permissions to edit POT map to anyone who ask me for it. The fee visible on the site is intended to reduce spam and spread queries over time. I'm just a single person who is trying to manage the service with more than 600 maps and another hundreds of users.
     
  12. Sean Silverfoot

    Sean Silverfoot Avatar

    Messages:
    2,646
    Likes Received:
    7,257
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hudson Valley area of NY

    Thank you @Jakub White for your time and effort. I will make sure another donation heads your way.
     
  13. Retlaw

    Retlaw Avatar

    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    926
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Just a thought but would Port be better off making sotamap an official approved application or something along those linse like UO did with uoautomap and uoassist instead of a permanant integration?
     
  14. redfish

    redfish Avatar

    Messages:
    11,366
    Likes Received:
    27,673
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Look, even beyond all of the other issues with integrating SotA Map... They need maps for the offline version of the game, including for when the game isn't connected to the Internet. So, the devs really need to finish developing a map system that can work well without the SotA Map integration.

    And my belief is once they do that, SotA Map will both be redundant and a bit too hand-holdy. So again, I'm hoping this is temporary until they can finish their native map system.
     
  15. Crazy Phil

    Crazy Phil Avatar

    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    1,104
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    1. I wish I could shrink the window a bit more.
    2. I wish I could make it transparent.
    3. It says someone else own's my lot. If there's a lot of mismatched info out there, that could be bad.
    4. Overall, I think it's helpful and people will dig it. I feel like it binds the world together more and helps show off how large this game really is. :)
     
  16. Arjac

    Arjac Avatar

    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    969
    Trophy Points:
    30
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Poland
    You can edit this information on sotamap.com. You have to be registered user. You have to login, open town map, turn on edit mode, click on lot, edit name and owner and then you have to save changes.
     
  17. Crazy Phil

    Crazy Phil Avatar

    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    1,104
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Perhaps the information should be hidden until logged in? Just a thought. Concerned about the confusion/frustration folks may have. For example, players reading "Free Lot" everywhere and running over to find the lots already in use.

    Also, a link or button to take you outside of the game and launch the computer's preferred browser would be helpful for logging in and such. Unless there is some way to fit login and registration into that little in-game window of course. ;)
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  18. Merv DeGriff

    Merv DeGriff Avatar

    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    The desert Southwest.
    Umuri's long post:

    I agree with @Umuri on the 3rd party data sharing aspect of this. Personally from a security aspect I would also like to see it running from a server mirrored with the team in Portalium. I don't have any ill will towards www.sotamap.com , but one bad day for them could expose a lot more than I'd like. @Jakub White only needs to lose once, the same could be said for Portalium, but then again they are already hosting the game.

    To qualify my feelings on this, wife is the security specialist. I'm just a hardware guy who hung up his grey hat a long time ago and married a chick who traded hers for a white one.

    As for concerns about costs to get a POT listed in this map, I agree with @Sean Silverfoot on this one... paying a 3rd party for something in game for SOTA is kidna wonky. I understand @Jakub White needs to keep the server hamster fed and watered, but as an in game feature the cross dependency is a bit odd.

    Hire @Jakub White and co-locate his server in the farm? I don't know... I love the site, I love the feature, but this seems a bit awkward. It's kinda like the situation with UOAssist and UO back in the day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.