Spoon’s - Dungeon Feedback/Suggestions/Wishlist mega topic

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Spoon, Apr 10, 2019.

?

Which would you like to see? (Select 5 favorites)

  1. Dungeon piece selection through dropdown

    50.0%
  2. Add “I” to the existing “L” “T” “X” convention instead of “straight”

    16.7%
  3. “Collision” text as added clue when building

    16.7%
  4. Player Instructions update

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Transition piece reshape recipe

    16.7%
  6. More Recipe Book divisions

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Add arch to Cave & Stone connection piece model

    16.7%
  8. No reteachable recipe loot drops

    16.7%
  9. Falcon view

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. “Drop” in name of the blueprint drops

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. Change “Basement” header to “Basements and Player Dungeons”

    16.7%
  12. Entrance packs need title fix

    16.7%
  13. Foyer needs 3D previews

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  14. Dungeon Pieces Pack - Price review

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  15. Fix “Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer” title

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  16. Dungeon Style Dye

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  17. Blueprint packs - vs - ready Piece packs

    33.3%
  18. Make a 'regular' style pack

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  19. Individual Corridor/Chamber pick-one-bag

    16.7%
  20. Long corridor pieces, pick-one-bags

    16.7%
  21. Player Dungeon Glossary

    16.7%
  22. Gfx effect on all Player Dungeon Entrances

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  23. One type of Entrances

    16.7%
  24. 60% of rooms multi-connected

    33.3%
  25. Modular Tile design

    33.3%
  26. Paver compatibility for all standard rooms

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  27. Multiple recipes but same Blueprint

    33.3%
  28. Dungeon Monuments

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  29. Recipe Book 3D preview

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  30. Dungeon Entrance as POT Building

    16.7%
  31. None of the above

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  32. Too much text Spoon, too many options, can't be bothered

    16.7%
  33. Adding my own suggestion down below

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Spoon’s - Dungeon Feedback/Suggestions/Wishlist mega topic


    **Disclaimer

    Please note that I've tried to not include things the devs have already said are planned/jirad in the lists below.

    Also please note that I've not listed things that are pure bugs. Instead if there are bug stuff it is also about some improvement at the same time.

    Might polish some of the illustrations if I wasn't clear enough about specific points.

    **Disclaimer




    Top 10 low hanging fruit/usability/QoL suggestions, in user experience order

    Executive summary, details about top10 Usability in post below.


    1. Dungeon piece selection through dropdown
      Change the <> arrows for selection to the more effective dropdown selection UI, with submenu for style. Would optimally be a Gallery with pics.

    2. Add “I” to the existing “L” “T” “X” convention instead of “straight”
      So the pieces sorts correctly, also Consistency is king so apply that convention to all appropriate chambers/rooms as well.
      See “Standardized Nomenclature” under major design decisions for more details.

    3. “Collision” text as added clue when building
      When selecting pieces at the connection, wouldn’t it be better if it said in plain text that you have a collision instead of just not allowing confirm.

    4. Player Instructions update
      The Player Instructions don’t reflect the crown store change, nor the blueprint paradigm, nor that there are special dungeon loot drops, nor the encounters/totems.
      There is also a need for a simple 2 column table to the Player Instructions, listing the differences between Basement and Dungeon.

    5. Transition piece reshape recipe
      Add a reshape recipe that takes 2 different styled “I” straight corridors and creates 2 transition corridors between the two types. (ie 1 Stone piece + 1 Cave piece = 2 stone/cave transitions)

    6. More Recipe Book divisions
      In the Recipe Book under Smelting, the header is only “Dungeons” in a big mix, please divide further into “Dungeon Corridors”, “Dungeon Chambers” and “Dungeon Miscellaneous”.

    7. Add arch to Cave & Stone connection piece model
      Since the Cave and Stone connections have lower ceilings than the other standard pieces, you need to have some arch graphics on top of them so that they become compatible. Pics in link.

    8. No reteachable recipe loot drops
      Reteachable recipe drops is a prank which leads to players feeling cheated. Either remove them or make them non-teachable.

    9. Falcon view
      Please please please, create a spell/emote/feature where we can get the camera to briefly go 20m above our avatar pointing down. Kinda like the telescope.

    10. “Drop” in name of the blueprint drops
      If the names of the ones only available through drops would have the term “Drop” in them that would make things much easier when checking recipes and vendors.


    Top 10 store crown changes, in usability order

    Executive summary, details about top10 Crown Store in below.

    1. Change “Basement” header to “Basements and Player Dungeons”
      To make it easier to find them.

    2. Entrance packs need title fix
      The titles for the Entrance packs are misleading, for example the XX points gives the impression you get more points in the pack, which isn’t true etc.

    3. Foyer needs 3D previews
      The corridors and rooms have them but they are missing for Foyers.

    4. Dungeon Pieces Pack - Price review
      The dungeon pieces packs are all over the place in terms of pricing.

    5. Fix “Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer” title
      The title "Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer mixes the terms Entrance and Foyer, also the object calls it Connections while the title calls it Entrances. Should be “Minecart 5 Connections Dungeon Foyer” in all places.
      See “Standardized Nomenclature” under major design decisions for more details.

    6. Dungeon Style Dye
      Add to crown store Dungeon Style Dye packs, that allow a Reshape recipe to change the style on pieces that are the same model with other textures. (Ancient/Marble)

    7. Blueprint packs - vs - ready Piece packs
      Reveiw the difference both visually and price-wise between packs that contain blueprints and packs that contain ready for use pieces.

    8. Make a 'regular' style pack
      Right now almost every pack have different numbers and content etc. Which makes it very confusing for shoppers. While if there was a template pack with same content but in different styles it would be much more intuitive.

    9. Individual Corridor/Chamber pick-one-bag
      Create a corridor piece pick-one-bag objects. So you buy a pick-one-bag, then the player can consume a bag and pick L T X or I themself. You could also add a Reshape recipe for X crowns to “go back to bag” for a new pick.

    10. Long corridor pieces, pick-one-bags
      It would be great if we could buy long corridors as well which is like three ordinary ones in a row. Like we did with the roadway pavers. Like [═══] [═╬═] [╔═╝] [╚═╗].



    Top 10 design decisions, in a max_gain min_effort sorting
    Since these are indeed major I will link to new topics for some of these.

    Executive summary, details about Design Decisions down below.
    Please note that some of these has individual links to their own topics.
    1. Player Dungeon Glossary
      Add a Standardized Nomenclature and use it consistently in UI, manual, names etc.
      Link to details in a separate post below.

    2. Gfx effect on all Player Dungeon Entrances
      Add the same Gfx effect to all dungeon entrances including crafted, so that players can consistently see what is a dungeon entrance regardless of form.

    3. One type of Entrances
      Make both the Player Dungeon and the Basement entrances interchangeable.

    4. 60% of rooms multi-connected
      Majority of available rooms need to have “L” “T” “X” “I” connections.

    5. Modular Tile design
      Change to a Modular Tile design exclusively to reduce workload. Remake all free form pieces to Modular Tile. This will be a huge resource saver over time.
      Link to details in a separate post below.

    6. Paver compatibility for all standard rooms
      All appropriate standard chambers/rooms with flat floors needs be compatible with the paver sizes so outlanders can completely fill the room floor with tiles.

    7. Multiple recipes but same Blueprint
      For the standard dungeon pieces of similar layout like 3x3 5x5 “L” “T” “X” “I” etc then it would be much more sandbox if we can use the same Blueprint where instead multiple Recipes with different ingredients determines the result.

    8. Dungeon Monuments
      For the sake of sandbox diversity, consider creating a new ingredient object for dungeon recipes, Monument/Ornament, which changes the center of chambers. (Examples in link)

    9. Recipe Book 3D preview
      Wouldn't it be amazing if one could click somewhere on the dungeon recipe in the recipe book and get the same 3d preview as in the crown store?

    10. Dungeon Entrance as POT Building
      Pretty please with sugar on top, could POTs be allowed to place a dungeon entrance which is counted as a POT building? That way a POT could have several Dungeon entrances in great locations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 4:49 PM
    redfish, Astirian, Beaumaris and 4 others like this.
  2. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Top 10 low hanging fruit/usability/QoL suggestions, in user experience order



    1) Dungeon piece selection through dropdown

    What
    In the Connection interface, change the < > selection arrows to the more effective dropdown selection UI, with submenu for style. Would optimally be a Gallery with pics.

    Why
    <> arrow selection doesn’t scale and doesn’t reset well enough. For instance if you have 20+ dungeon pieces in inventory, then you need to click through all of those you don’t want to get to what you want. Also if you are going back from your design it isn’t easy to reset to no selection. Plus you usually do one style at a time, but the <> doesn’t let you shortcut to a style.

    But with a dropdown menu, with style submenus, then you’d open>point>select for any choice regardless how many items are in the list.
    Plus the top choice could be -NONE- so we can reset easily.

    How​

    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic.
    Note the "None" selection on top, note the Style submenu so you can easily continue the same style, and then the list is only within that style.
    Where the style submenu only showing if the list contains that style.

    2) Add “I” to the existing “L” “T” “X” shape convention instead of “straight”

    What
    Change the name of the straight corridor to the same naming convention as the other corridor pieces, but with “I”.

    Why​

    When selecting the most common piece - the straight corridor - it is always sorted last and away from the other corridor pieces, it makes no sense.

    But if you use the same naming convention as the other corridor pieces with an "I" for straight, then they sort correctly, also Consistency is king so apply that convention to all appropriate chambers/rooms as well.
    See “Dungeon Glossary” under major design decisions for more details.

    How​

    Left side is how it is, right side how great it could be.
    [​IMG]
    Note that in the right side with the "I" solution, the straight piece which is the one we use the most sorts first.

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ew-days-before-ready-wip.153912/#post-1226753
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor I Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor L Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor T Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor X Shape
    Blue Marble 3x3 Medium Chamber I Shape
    Blue Marble Section Indoor Pool



    3) “Collision” text as added clue when building

    What​

    When selecting pieces at the connection, if there is a collision there is no visual clue to this except for the [Accept] button not lighting up.

    Why​

    Wouldn’t it be better with a “Collision” text and a red border clearly showing what is wrong and thereby help the user rectify it?

    How​

    Left side is how it is now, can you see what is wrong? Right side is how easy it could be.
    [​IMG]
    In the manipulated pic on the right, the selection gets a RED highlight, and the error text added below the Accept button.


    4) Player Instructions update

    What/Why​

    The Player Instructions don’t reflect the crown store change, nor the blueprint paradigm, nor that there are special dungeon loot drops, nor the encounters/totems.
    You mention that it is like a basement, but no details on what is the difference. So there is a need for a simple 2 column table to the Player Instructions, listing the differences between Basement and Dungeon.

    How​

    Let me know if you want the text passages in the current one highlighted in all the places it is incorrect. It is about 15% of the text on the subject.


    5) Transition piece reshape recipe

    What
    Add a reshape recipe that takes 2 different styled “I” straight corridors and creates 2 transition corridors between the two types. (ie 1 Stone piece + 1 Cave piece = 2 stone/cave transitions)

    Why​

    Given how you have made cool rooms in the different styles which are unique to those styles then players are going to use multiple styles. But the transition pieces are few and far between. That means that you have not given the player the tool to fix this.

    But if they can take a spare corridor piece from the two styles and mix them then we the players can solve this problem on our own.



    6) More Recipe Book divisions

    In the Recipe Book under Smelting, the header is only “Dungeons” in a big mix, please divide further into “Dungeon Pieces”, “Dungeon Encounters” and “Dungeon Miscellaneous”.

    [​IMG]


    7) Add arch to Cave & Stone connection piece model

    What​

    Your different dungeon styles does not have a standard connection,that is a big issue.
    [​IMG]


    Why​

    Since the Cave and Stone connections have lower ceilings than the other standard pieces, then you need to have some arch graphics on top of them so that they become compatible.

    When you place connection cave<>cave they wouldn’t show, but when you place connection cave<>marble then you would see the arch filler on top of the cave/stone connection.

    I know that you have stated several times that you hope that players won't mix pieces that don't match, however since you only let them craft one type, while you add some pieces as livestream rewards and others as drops. You will have a majority of players who will match that which they have, which you have made so that they don't match.

    How​

    You already have the gfx model. This is from the "Cave Stone room 5x5 Entrance C".
    [​IMG]
    Here you can see the tunnel with the arch above it.
    That way if connected to another cave tunnel, you wouldn't see the arch, but when connected to a marble/ancient piece the arch would be there blocking the gap.

    Same thing for the Stone Room 3x3 for the other arch you need.
    [​IMG]
    If you cut off the arch and place it above the stone dungeon corridor pieces, then if it connects to another Stone Dungeon piece it is hidden, while if connected to Ancient Stone/Marble it closes the gap.



    8) No reteachable recipe loot drops

    What/Why​

    Reteachable recipes as rare loot drops is a prank move, which leads to players feeling cheated, both when getting them or when buying them from eachother.

    How​

    Either remove them or make them non-teachable.
    Where it would be much nicer with more Blueprint drops than recipes.



    9) Falcon view

    Please please please, create a dungeon spell/emote/feature where we can get the camera to briefly go 20m above our avatar pointing down so we can see our dungeon layout. Kinda like the telescope.



    10) “Drop” in name of the blueprint drops

    What​

    In the title of Blueprints that comes from drops, add something (preferably "drop") which showcase that it is only available through loot drops.

    Why​

    If the names of the ones only available through drops would have the term “Drop” in them that would make things much easier when checking recipes and vendors.

    This since when looking at the recipe or vendor, you don't have a clue where the blueprint can be got. Is it one from the bookshops? one from the store? or one from drops?

    This is then compoundd with nr8 above, about the recipe drops. Where you can get a recipe and then not realize that the blueprint is a drop as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 4:49 PM
  3. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Top 10 store crown changes, in usability order



    1) Change “Basement” header to “Basements and Player Dungeons”

    What​

    [​IMG]


    Why​

    Don't hide stuff the players are looking for. Especially in the shop.



    2) Entrance packs need title fix

    What​

    The titles for the Entrance packs are misleading, for example the XX points gives the impression you get more points in the pack, which isn’t true etc. Then the package is mostly blueprints some of which you can get in the game. Where the recipes are reteachable and thus worthless. Where any dungeon pieces pack is cheaper with more content.
    This means the title is creating a user expectation that is unrealistic vs the actual content.

    Also the Circle of Stones pack has a unique Foyer which isn't advertised enough.

    How​

    from “Ancient Tome Dungeon Entrance plus 50 Point Dungeon”
    to “Ancient Tome Dungeon Entrance with Blueprint Pack”

    from “Magic Mirror Dungeon Entrance plus 75 Point Dungeon”
    to “Magic Mirror Dungeon Entrance with Blueprint Pack”

    from “Circle of Stones Rift Dungeon Entrance plus 125 Point Dungeon”
    to “Circle of Stones Dungeon Entrance with Blueprint Pack and special foyer”

    etc



    3) Foyer needs 3D previews

    The corridors and rooms have them but they are missing for Foyers.
    For instance, who would dare buy that expensive Minecart Foyer without a preview?


    [​IMG]


    4) Dungeon Pieces Pack - Price review

    What​

    The dungeon pieces packs are all over the place in terms of pricing.
    So I asked around about what folks felt was good deals and the replies was all over the place meaning most folks have no clue.

    Why​

    So lets compare the prices, for simplicity I divide it into corridors 1x1, and rooms. So anything which is 1x1 is a corridor, even when you call them something else.

    Now if the prices would be kinda close then everything is fine, since some rooms are large and some small etc. Howevr too large a diff and its off. OK?


    Hallway pack (different styles)
    11 corridors for 400 crowns = 36 per corridor

    Naural Caverns Dungeon Hallway pack
    19 corridors for 600 crowns = 31 per corridor

    So now we have a baseline for corridors. For simplicity when we try to calculate a default value for corridors we will put that at 35 crowns. While if a set contains a hallway set we use the value of that set.

    Dungeon Prison Set
    400 crowns
    6 corridors (cells) at 35ea = 210
    1 room for 190 = 190 crowns per room

    Ancient Stone Dungeon Rooms and Hallways
    1400 crowns
    11 corridors for 400 crowns = 36 per corridor
    6 rooms for 1000= 166 crowns per room

    Blue Marble Dungeon Rooms and Hallways
    900
    11 corridors for 400 crowns = 36 per corridor
    2 rooms for 500 = 250 crowns per room

    Green Marble Dungeon Rooms and Hallways
    1200
    11 corridors for 400 crowns = 36 per corridor
    3 rooms for 800 = 266 crowns per room

    Natural Caverns Dungeon Rooms
    600
    2 corridors at 35ea = 70
    9 rooms for 530 = 58 crowns per room

    Natural Caverns Dungeon Rooms and Hallways
    1100
    21 corridors for 600 crowns = 28 per corridor
    9 rooms for 500 = 55 crowns per room

    So the price range for corridors is about 28-36 crowns. Which is fine.

    However, rooms are all over.
    From 55/58 for the natural caverns rooms, all the way up to 250/266 crowns per marble room.

    That isn't good. That is a HUGE difference between the packs.




    5) Fix “Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer” title

    What/Why​

    The title "Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer” mixes the terms Entrance and Foyer which confuses buyers, also the object calls it Connections while the title calls it Entrances. Should be the same in all places.
    [​IMG]

    Link to Dungeon Glossary suggestion below.

    How​

    from “Minecart Five Entrance Dungeon Foyer”
    to “Minecart Five Connections Dungeon Foyer”


    6) Dungeon Style Dye

    What​

    Add to crown store Dungeon Style Dye packs, that allow a Reshape recipe to change the style on pieces that are the same model with other textures. (Ancient/Marble)

    Why​

    For the Marble and Ancient stone, you have the exact same model for the assets, you just change the textures. For those it makes sense to be able to apply a Dungeon Dye through a reshape recipe. Which would replace the asset with another asset in the dye style.

    That way instead of frustrated players trying to trade excess with eachother you'd get a small revenue stream where we can take surplus pieces of one style and make them into another style.

    While it makes no sense for the Stone pieces and Cave Stone pieces - don't do it for them.

    How​

    6 pack Dungeon Style dye for 200 crowns.

    Then for the Marble +Ancient add the dye flag to the standard pieces
    1x1 Corridors - I - L - T - X
    3x3 Chamber
    3x3 Chamber, I Shape
    3x3 Chamber, L Shape
    5x5 Chamber.



    7) Blueprint packs - vs - ready Piece packs


    Make a difference both visually and price-wise between packs that contain blueprints and packs that contain ready for use pieces.

    What/Why​

    In the crown store when you go through the content of the Entrance packs, all recipes and blueprints preview is just the piece of paper. So you can’t see how they look like.
    However over in the Dungeon Pieces packs they are ready to use pieces and thus have a 3D preview that actually shows how it looks like, which is great.

    Also if you are given blueprints then you really have a problem since there is no info on exactly how many thousands of granite you need to get/have to be able to craft all the recipes in such a entrance/blueprint pack.

    All of which devalues the more expensive Entrance packs greatly, where the less expensive Dungeon Piece packs doesn’t have those issues.
    Where you want the reverse, ie, your most expensive packs should also be giving the most exclusive feeling.

    [​IMG]

    How​

    Optimally do:
    A) Only have ready-to-use pieces in all the packs in the Crown store (no blueprints)
    B) Blueprints as in-game obtainable only (NPC merchants and Drops)


    8) Make a regular style pack

    What/Why​

    Right now almost every pack have different pricing, numbers and content etc except the hallway packs. Which makes it very confusing for shoppers. While if there was a regular pack with same content every time but in different styles it would be much more intuitive.

    How​

    Take a hallway pack and add three 3x3 plus a 5x5. Make one such pack for all styles at the same price point. But with no cool special pieces, just the plain versions of the chambers/rooms.



    9) Individual Corridor/Chamber pick-one-bag

    What​
    Create a corridor piece pick-one-bag objects. So you buy a pick-one-bag, then the player can consume the bag and pick one I L T X corridor.

    Why​

    Having fixed sets of pieces stifles creativity and variation.

    This also solves your problem of store bloat in that these pick-one-bags replace the other packs.

    If you want to have really fun then you'd do a single Corridor Pick-one, which first lets you pick style - which gives a pick-one-bag of that style, then you use that to pick your corridor shape. Then you can replace all the different hallways packs with just one set. Much better.

    How​

    Right now you sell hallway packs, with 11 mixed corridors for 400 (36 crowns per piece). Replace them with

    1 Corridor pick-one-bag for 50 crowns

    6 pack Corridor pick-one-bag for 250 crowns

    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic to show concept.

    Also you might want to consider adding a Reshape recipe that takes a corridor piece and 20 crowns, which makes it “go back to bag” for a new pick. (I'd advice similar things for all items from pick-one-bags but at different prices of course dependent on the object)



    10) Long corridor pieces, pick-one-bags

    What​

    It would be great if we could buy long corridors as well which is like three ordinary ones in a row.

    Why​

    The rooms you have are mostly 3x3 or larger - that means that it is quite the tedious process of creating corridors to adhere to that.
    With a triple in a row type of corridors that would speed up the building immensely plus provide additional opportunities for you if you do some odd 'fun' ones.

    This would be similar to what you created for the roadway pavers.

    If you want to have really fun then you'd do a single Corridor Pick-one, which first lets you pick style - which gives a pick-one-bag of that style, then you use that to pick your corridor shape. Then you can replace all the different hallways packs with just one set. Much better.

    How​

    1 "Long Corridor (1x3)" pick-one-bag for 150 crowns

    6 pack "Long Corridor (1x3)" pick-one-bag for 750 crowns

    When consumed you pick one. These six should suffice for a first iteration which would help a lot
    [═══] [═╬═] [╔══][╚══] [╔═╝] [╚═╗]
    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic to show concept.

    Yes those are the old dungeon ASCII chars, I tested them using the in game chat font and they work. Please review if they work in the inventory font as well, and if so you should use those ASCII fonts instead of the I L T X thingie.

    If the ASCII don't work for you then rename those into
    1x3 Long Corridor I Shape
    1x3 Long Corridor X Shape
    1x3 Long Corridor L Shape
    1x3 Long Corridor J Shape
    1x3 Long Corridor Z Shape
    1x3 Long Corridor S Shape
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  4. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Top 10 design decisions, in a max_gain min_effort sorting






    1) Player Dungeon Glossary

    What​

    Add a Glossary/Standardized Nomenclature and use it consistently in UI, manual, names etc.

    I put this in its own post below since it is so important.
    Click me I'm a link.


    2) Same Gfx effect on all Player Dungeon Entrances

    What​

    Add the same Gfx effect to all dungeon entrances including crafted.

    Why​

    Dungeons are supposed to be content for players, thus they need to advertise and cleary show what they are.

    It should have that
    >>Click Me<<
    feeling.

    So you want players to be able to easily spot player dungeons when walking though a scene. So that they can spontaneously test them out.
    Where right now no one can spot the difference between a regular tombstone and the player dungeon tombstone - which means that everyone runs past.

    How​

    When you add the Foyer to the Dungeon, the gfx is added to the display asset.


    3) One type of Entrances

    What​

    Make both the Player Dungeon and the Basement entrances interchangeable.

    Why​

    First and foremost, because it makes sense and removes confusion. They are all entrances regardless of where you end up.

    But you also have a couple of issues right now.
    • Too few dungeon entrances for variety
    • Only one which fits with a Row lot which is the majority of lots
    • How to display them in the store and recipe book
    • Players will confuse Entrance with Entrance anyway
    Also it would mean that sales of things like the DarkStarr/LB Basement Entrance will go up.
    Also if you have a Kobold themed dungeon, then you could use the kobold themed Basement Entrance etc.

    Then vice versa, it would be really cool to have the Dungeon Entrances go to your basement.

    How​

    As per suggestion 2 above - add a Rift gfx effect to all Entrances which are designated Dungeons.

    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic, showing all entrances in one store section. More sandbox with minimum effort.


    4) 60% of rooms multi-connected

    What​

    Majority of available chambers/rooms need to have “L” “T” “X” “I” connections.

    Why​

    If you check out any dungeon layout in your game or in other games you will note that the majority of all rooms have 2+ connections. While the minority have only 1.
    However in your packs it is the other way around. That means that we have to build pretty boring dungeons.

    Examples:

    [​IMG]
    Desolis
    Five rooms with 1 connection, eight rooms with 2+.



    [​IMG]
    Kiln Cistern
    Three rooms with 1 connection, ten with 2+.

    Try it yourselves, go through a favorit dungeon from any game and you will see similar results.


    How​

    60% of all chambers/rooms needs to have 2+ connections.
    Where you already have the solution in that if the connection is not used it looks like an alcove, while if used it becomes a corridor.
    So having more connections than used is not an issue, while the other way around is.


    5) Modular Tile design

    This one is a Huge ROI.
    Link to separate post below.


    6) Paver compatibility for all standard rooms

    What​

    All appropriate standard chambers/rooms with flat floors needs be compatible with the paver sizes so outlanders can completely fill the room floor with tiles.

    Why​

    I tried 6 different rooms in 5 different styles, and in neither could you fit pavers in the room without either colliding with the ornaments, or fit without having gaps.

    While as a player I have all of these cool pavers. Where if I could cover the whole floor of a room then that creates variety for our designs, without you devs having to do anything extra.

    [​IMG]
    In pic above you can see in the green square that the paver fits snuggly under the pillar which is great. However on the right hand in the red square it doesn't. Also when filling that room from side to side, you get ugly gaps.
    Which is the same for all the rooms I have tried. Gaps or collisions.

    How​

    This could be solved in the same change as the Design Decision>Modular Tiles.
    Link to that separate post.

    Otherwise what you need to do is make sure the floor is in the 2m2m standard of Paversfrom wall to wall, where the bottom of things like pillars - don't collide so we can sneak them below. In the pic above you can see that works in one direction but not the other for the crafted rooms.

    7) Multiple recipes but same Blueprint

    What​

    For the standard dungeon pieces of similar layout like 3x3 5x5 “L” “T” “X” “I” etc then it would be much more sandbox if we can use the same Blueprint where instead multiple Recipes with different ingredients determines the result.

    Why​

    Right now you make additional blueprints for every single design you have. That is not sustainable in the long run nor is it fun for the user with such limited usability.
    Your crown store, loot tables and your NPC merchant inventory will bloat hideously.

    But most of them don't need their own unique blueprint, all they need is different recipes.

    For example:
    [​IMG]
    These chambers all have the same basic shape and could thus share the same blueprint. Just have the recipes with slightly different ingredients.

    Also if you then let us salvage a piece to get the blueprint back. Then you could get another small revenue stream from selling Dungeon Style Dye (Crown Store suggestions top10 above), while having an additional goldsink for the coal+granite etc.



    8) Dungeon Monuments as Ingredients

    What​

    For the sake of sandbox diversity, consider creating a new ingredient object for dungeon recipes, Monument/Ornament, which changes the center of chambers.

    Why/How​

    Combine that with the multiple recipes one blueprint in nr7 above, then you could have a recipe that takes a, Blueprint: 5x5 Chamber and a Dungeon Monument plus the usual.
    Where the room is the same and looks the same, but the center piece of the room changes with the Dungeon Monument Ingredient that you have put there.

    One example would be the Green Marble room with the Tree in the center. That center piece would be the Dungeon Monument. Where the base for all monuments would be the same for collision purposes but the model would differ.

    Where some recipes could take more than one monument ingredient (must be same kind though), say a recipe for a room with four corner placements which can take monuments.

    So you have one recipe - many results depending on the Monument ingredient. This reduces Recipe Book bloat - while at the same time increasing sandbox and diversity. (Also additional sales if done right).
    This because if I want to have a specific theme in my dungeon (like many want) then buying a bunch of such monuments and adding them when I craft would make the player very happy and willing to spend more to get what they want.
    This in contrast to what we have now where you need to buy packs where only one piece got the thing we want, deterring more purchases and abandoning the themes.

    Then you could have a Dungeon Monument Ingredient Pick-one-bag for the standard things.
    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic.

    But you could also add other such Dungeon Monuments outside the standard, like ornate ones in the store and some of them as rare loot drops.
    Where

    So this is both for the low strata folks who usually craft their dungeons and don't spend much in store. But with Monuments as a gateway you could make them take that small step that can lead to more.
    But also for the top strata folks who spend a lot, if the sandbox allow them to create cohesive themes and layouts.


    9) Recipe Book 3D preview

    What​

    Wouldn't it be awesome if one could click somewhere on the dungeon recipe in the recipe book and get the same 3d preview as in the crown store?

    [​IMG]
    Manipulated pic showing principle of clicking the recipe icon to get the 3D preview.


    10) Dungeon as POT Building

    What​

    Pretty please with sugar on top, could POTs be allowed to place a dungeon entrance which is counted as a POT building?

    Then we'd really see some of those choices Starr wants us to - Devotional or Dungeon...

    Where some POTs will chose to fill all their building slots with Dungeon Entrances creating great adventure areas.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 4:50 PM
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  5. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Design Decision - Deep Dive



    1) Player Dungeon Glossary

    What

    Add a Standardized Nomenclature and use it consistently in UI, manual, names etc.


    Why

    Right now you are confusing the users. You use terms in different contexts with different meanings. The inventory list becomes un-filterable from all the False Positives and False Negatives.
    I myself was 5 min away from logging a lost piece report to support, until I realised that the recipe / blueprint / piece all had three different ways of saying Corridor. If a thorough person like myself was close I'd bet you will get dozens and dozens of such reports just in 2019 alone.

    You are too small a team to create more work down the line like that. Where a glossary would help yourselves, your customers and your business with consistent and clear communication.

    So what do we need?

    Standardized Nomenclature

    Consistency - make a clear terminology/glossary and then stick to it - such consistency in naming and terminology prevents false player expectations/confusion and thus frustration leading to bad bug reports and reviews over perception instead of reality.
    • Entrance - in different parts of UI/manual/store this is now used for both Dungeon Entrance, Basement Entrance and in some places as number of Connections, plus names of some of the packs and individual pieces, leading to unnecessary confusition, filter and sort issues.
    • Some Foyers don't include Foyer in the name.
    • You use the term "room" in different contexts with different meanings. the way it has been currently used its a catch all term for everything from a 4m4m to a 24m48 object, that automatically leads to confusion and false expectations. This is especially confusing when a room can be a room or a room can have a room, but some rooms are not rooms, etc.
    • You mix the use of "Hall" "Hallway" and "Corridor" when you mean the same thing. But those three different terms have different connotations. Plus their use differ between american english and british english. Where we have a precedent in RPG dungeons.
    • Some pieces have measurements but most don't. That creates usability confusion.
    • Point has over 20 different meanings in english. Several of which could be refered to in combination with dungeons. For instance score points, access points, size points, location point, entrance point, connection point. etcetc in such cases one can't use the term alone without creating ambiguity.
    • What is an A entrance? In one case that is a two way in another it is a three way, in another a deadend with some ornaments etc. The A B C gives no clue to what it actually looks like.
    • etc

    So check out this list, I've put all my dungeon stuff in a container and that is a list of confusion.
    [​IMG]
    filtering on Foyer doesn't give all foyers
    filtering on intersection doesn't give all corridors
    look at the Cave Stone rooms, which 3x3 is which one? Which 5x is which one?
    Confusion, etc etc

    Please consider reusing the block naming convention of measurements YxY at front of name but after style.

    Please consider reusing a similar adjective nomenclature which you use on walls/fences.

    Please consider setting names on each object type and use those consistently .(connections/entrances/intersections I'm looking at you :mad:)

    Please consider stop using the term 'room' unless if used in the generic sense and never in name texts.

    How​

    Piece Title= Style:Measurement:AdjectiveTerm:Name:Shape
    Where the Name isn't necessary for most standard pieces.
    See examples in the spoilers below.


    Spoon's suggestions on a Dungeon Glossary:
    (this would have been a table if the forum engine allowed that)

    Glossary
    Meaning
    Build Points (BP)
    How big a dungeon can be. Also how much each piece cost to place in BP. Build Points is set by the lot/pot size and can be increased with gold and/or crowns.​
    Entrance
    A Dungeon Entrance is the access point to the dungeon, it is the decoration item you place on your lot/pot. (NB If you don't combine with Basement Entrance then use Dungeon Access instead)​
    Foyer
    a dungeon Foyer is the starting piece in any dungeon, it is also always connected to a Dungeon Entrance. It has at least one Connection where pieces can be placed.​
    Connection
    a dungeon Connection is the doorways between pieces, it is through the Connection interface you add more dungeon pieces.​
    Piece
    the dungeon pieces are the building blocks of a player dungeon. Like Corridors, Chambers and Sections. Pieces can be crafted or purchased in packs in the crown store. Refer to the adjective list below for size & shape descriptive terms.​
    >>Corridor
    a Corridor piece is a standard little instersection with two to four Connections which cannot be decorated, usually designated X L T I describing their shape.​
    >>Chamber
    a Chamber piece is a standard square dungeon room which allows decoration or even traps and encounters.​
    >>Section
    a Section piece is a non-standard dungeon piece. These are usually grand Chambers with special ornaments and/or a unique look and feel.​
    Encounter
    Dungeon Encouters are fightable monsters, these comes normally from a dungeon Encounter piece with placed Totems​
    Transition
    An "I" shaped Corridor that transitions between two styles, with one style in each end. They are used to transition between different styles in a better looking way.​
    Trap
    Not implemented yet.

    Measurement : adjective : term.

    examples
    Long, elongated, small, medium, large, grand.

    1x1 Corridor
    1x3 Long Corridor

    1x1 Cell
    2x2 Small Chamber
    3x3 Medium Chamber
    5x5 Large Chamber
    7x7 Grand Chamber

    3x5 Long Medium Chamber
    3x7 Elongated Medium Chamber

    Section doesn't need any adjectives apart from the name since they are meant to be special pieces. So if the piece doesn't comply with a standard measurement then it is a Section. Like the blue marble pool or green marble koi, those are Sections and don't use the adjective terminology.

    Shapes

    Please expand the I L T X convention to include Chambers as well.
    You really need it and it would make things much easier for the players when they see the same convention used consistently between Corridors and Chambers.

    Where all corridors and chambers with more than 1 connection get a Shape suffix. While if it is a dead-end it does not get a shape suffix. This removes the need to write out all those "two entrance" text which doesn't really tell you the shape it has.

    I Shape - ║ - 2 connections, straight

    L Shape - ╔ - 2 connctions, bend

    T Shape - ╦ - 3 connections, in three 90' directions

    X Shape - ╬ - 4 connections, in four 90' directions

    Please note that long corridors and chambers mostly have the shapes above, but they can have more, so you might want to consider other letters as well.

    Y Shape - ╚╦╝ - 3 connections, one by two in 180'

    H Shape - ╠═╣ - 4 connections, two by two in 180'

    S Shape - ╚═╗ - 2 connections, two bends starting left ending right

    Z Shape - ╔═╝ - 2 connections, two bends starting right ending left

    U Shape - ╚═╝ - 2 connections, both in same direction


    Examples, please note I got them with OCR of inventory pic above, so might have spelling errors from that.
    Piece Title= Style:Measurement:AdjectiveTerm:Name:Shape

    from
    Green Marble Hallway Intersection L
    Green Marble Hallway Intersection T
    Green Marble Hallway Intersection X
    Green Marble Room Koi Pond A
    Green Marble Room One Entrance A
    Green Marble Room Two Entrance A
    Green Marble Straight Hallway​
    to
    Green Marble 1x1 Corridor I Shape
    Green Marble 1x1 Corridor L Shape
    Green Marble 1x1 Corridor T Shape
    Green Marble 1x1 Corridor X Shape
    Green Marble 3x3 Medium Chamber
    Green Marble 3x3 Medium Chamber I Shape
    Green Marble Section Koi Pond T Shape
    See how nicely it sorts because of the measurements in front? That means that corridors are always first and the chamber are sorted through size, where special Sections always comes last.
    Which is also almost aligned with how much we use the different pieces.
    Piece Title= Style:Measurement:AdjectiveTerm:Name:Shape

    from
    Blue Marble Hallway Intersection L
    Blue Marble Hallway Intersection T
    Blue Marble Hallway Intersection X
    Blue Marble Indoor Pool
    Blue Marble Room Two Entrances
    Blue Marble Straight Hallway​

    to
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor I Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor L Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor T Shape
    Blue Marble 1x1 Corridor X Shape
    Blue Marble 3x3 Medium Chamber I Shape
    Blue Marble Section Indoor Pool​

    Again it sorts by use case, most used on top, special cases on bottom.
    will add if requested, if so write which one
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 4:11 AM
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  6. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Design Decision - Deep Dive


    5) Modular Tile design

    What​

    Change to a Modular Tile design exclusively to reduce workload. Remake all free form pieces to Modular Tile. This will be a huge resource saver over time.


    Why​


    Right now you have a Custom Tile with mixed design. Where some pieces and some connections don't match. Where rooms don't have extra space for walls so placing them adjacent will cause gfx overlap. Where the stairs and the slopes don't go up enough not to hit the ceilings of the lower floor. Where some connections connect on a door and others in a 'half' of a corridor section. Where some styles are not meant to match or connect with others etc.

    If I'm counting right then you have 12 different connections (marble 1, ancient 2, stone dungeon 4, cave 5). Where both the caves and stone dungeon are intentionally incompatible with anything else.
    Also going through the rooms about 70% of them have collision issues in that their dimension are at the walls but the space behind the wall still have gfx spilling over without collision, leading to overlap if you set two of them adjacent.
    You even have such overlap for you transition pieces so that one cannot go directly from transition to room without gfx artifacts sticking out.

    Where you in livestreams have mentioned several times that you hope the players won't mismatch things and where you have said you'd need to set rules preventing mismatched connections etc.

    If you had been a large team with lots time to spare that would have been totally fine.
    But you are not.

    Some features are simply a better match for large teams while some are a better match for small teams.

    The direction you are going with the mixed design for dungeon pieces is a time-thief going forward. This since a mixed solution don't scale, instead each new design leads to more and more complexity, leading to more and more exceptions, rules and bug vectors. Plus having the majority of users using crafted stuff that don't match easily with anything else will lead to lots of unnecessary drama.
    Don't do it.

    Instead what you need is the design decision providing a slightly bigger up front cost but a minimum of maintenance after a piece is created.
    That way you save time throughout the project.

    Let's go into how.

    For clarity I will simplify the different conceptual solutions by showing you the "Custom Tile" vs "Modular Tile" through the MVP of p'n'p RPG.
    [​IMG]
    On the left you have "Custom Tile" mixed design, while on the right you have "Modular Tile"

    In a "Custom Tile" system you can mix and match how you want and it doesn't really matter how you place them.
    This "Custom Tile" concept is clearly part of the inspiration in SotA.

    In a "Modular Tile" system you have a Modular Grid which the tiles match onto. Where each tile can only mix and match through access point corridors.

    For Custom Tile mix and match to work in a 3d Game you need to have a lot of code+rules behind. For instance all the walls/collision mesh need to be there so you don't fall through boundaries, and everywhere where you place one open room next to another then they remove the walls forming a larger room etc.

    Like in the Dungeon Keeper series. Your pieces have a size and you can connect them almost anywhere.

    Which is fine if you have the manpower to maintain and establish all those exceptions and handle all the support related to it.

    Where in SotA it means that placing some pieces wall-to-wall leads to objects peaking through, or when placing one connection to another they don't match.

    However that is not a cost effective design. This since all the exceptions and all the freeform fails needs to be covered by the code rules the devs put in, or they come in the other way through bug vectors and user reports.

    So every time you add a new idea or concept your potential connections and mis-matches multiply. That means that you are creating exception after exception after exception which you need to either handle through rules or through false flag support.
    BUT I hear you say. Doesn't that impair the sandbox/versatility of how to build?
    -Not really, by limiting pieces to the modular grid you have more freedom within that grid. (Kinda like minecraft).

    This since right now if you experiment too much you will run into issues that means you have to start over. It also means the devs will run into issues with users reporting bugs all over about combining X with Y leading to Z problem. It also means you cannot design a 200+ Build Points dungeon through improvisation, since you must use planning tools or at the very least graph paper, and even then you will often go wrong and have to restart/rework parts.

    While with Modular Tiles you are free to experiment as much as you'd like and you know it will always match in the end - no matter how much strange stuff you have done along the way.

    BUT I hear you say. Doesn't that impair the creativity for the devs, where they can't create things like the cool caves?
    -Not really. The grid only sets the outer dimensions of the piece, where inside the wallspace the devs have total freedom to design anything at all.
    Which saves tons of works when designing new pieces since if they comply with the grid then the devs know they will match with all the previous pieces and with all the future pieces.


    In SotA right now the pieces that are already somewhat on a Modular Tile grid would be the corridors (and the marble sets, they are nice that way).
    Any given Corridor I L T X will always be 8m by 8m. Where the connections are always 4m wide (ignoring the cave tubes).
    [​IMG]
    In pic above I've used different styles to show the cutoff point for the blue marble corridor X - outer measurement 8m, with connection width of 4m pillar to pillar.
    If you build a dungeon using Corridors only you could never go wrong and you'd never collide or get gfx overspill into the next piece. This since the pieces all comply with the 8m modular grid.

    If you analyze why that works with the corridors then it is because they all have a defined 2m wall space, on each side of the 4m connections (2+4+2=8). Which is also why if you mix two styles/colors it cuts off in the "middle" between pillars. This prevents the overspill and the collisions.

    Where SotA goes off-grid (pun) is with most of the chambers/rooms, which do not comply with the same Modular grid as the corridors. This since they don't have the 2m wall space defined on the sides. Especially the crafted ones.
    Thus in the Dungeon Stone chamber/rooms 1x1 and 3x3 they are said to be 8m by 8m and 24m by 24m, however they are not on the Modular Grid since that is floorspace only, where the walls spill over outside of that. So in effect it is roughly 9m and 25m respectively, which is a totally wrong match for the corridors, even within its own style set.
    Also since the connection isn't a half-corridor but a door, it cuts of the connecting corridor in half at the middle - or what is worse if you connect chamber/room to another chamber/room, then the door connection means the wall will spill over into eachother.

    Same for the Dungeon Cave which says 3x3 or 5x5. They spill over beyond the walls, and connects at door instead of corridor. Which breaks the grid the corridors use.

    This leads to lots of issues:
    [​IMG]
    Where a (relatively) simple redesign decision would have the rooms be on the same Modular Grid of 8m by 8m with connections always being 2+4+2 and you would solve all of these issues. Where all Connections are always a corridor, and never directly a door (where width is the important part, while depth can be compromised where feasible).

    The same goes for height. Where the same type of grid is necessary so that you don't collide.
    Where low pieces would be x1 tile high, but high ceiling chamber/rooms would be x2 or x3 tiles high.




    How​


    Modular Tile also provides a bunch of bonus effects if one wants to seize those at the same time.
    • If all floorspace is on a 2m subgrid, then we get Paver compatibility at the same time, this so we can cover the whole decorable floor without gaps with pavers
    • We can reuse the #x# convention for tiles.
      So 1x1 = 8m by 8m. 3x3 = 24m by 24m. 5x5 = 40m by 40m.
      That makes it much easier for the users to work out layouts in their head on the fly.
    • Then if we fix the Glossary for standard sizes these can match/align with the Tiles of the #x#. Like the Corridors being 1x1, where a "Long Corridor" would be 1x3 tiles.
    • Since the Modular Tile includes wall space this prevents spill overs between pieces.
    • Another hidden benefit if one wants would be Build Points could be tiled based for easier calculations. If a 1x1 that cost X-bp, then a 3x3 could be 9X-bp, etc.

    Modular Tile Examples


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 4:50 PM
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  7. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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  8. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    I'll turn Tazar, Lancell and Flair on to this thread, @Spoon
    They have made amazing dungeons and I'm certain they'll want to see what you feel are dungeon QOL's.
     
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  9. Aartemis

    Aartemis Avatar

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  10. Curt

    Curt Avatar

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    May have missed something but what I read sounded like good ideas.

    Also made me ponder if a 'under construction' sign would be a good idea for dungeon decoration.
     
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  11. Aartemis

    Aartemis Avatar

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    Also, ALL of the dungeon Halls and Rooms need a "once over" on decoration surfaces. They are inconsistent and confusing.

    I spent a LOT of time writing up deco bugs on every single room and Sarah decided to combine them all into a single "rooms need deco surfaces" JIRA. Know what happens when a JIRA like that goes in? Nothing.

    If a Room is set for deco then the floor, walls, and ceiling should all be deco-able.

    Looking at the Standard Hallway Set, the "T" is well done, "L" only has one deco wall, the "X" can only deco the center floor. This leads to major confusions of what can be decorated and what cannot.
    Once they standardize the bug forums like Chris talked about, I will re-enter every deco issue I find.
     
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  12. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    No need to tag them until it is ready. My thought was to send PMs to point them here when it is done.
    This since tags are too many and easily missed, while PMs make sure folks who should see them see them.

    Definately.
    In the same interface as you select "Adventure:On", but I won't steal that one and let you make that suggestion seperately.

    Well....at least you got a jira...
    ;)
    You know what happens when I do stuff like the long lists above?
    :p
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ce-nux-spoons-qa-feedback-path-of-love.64099/
    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...nce-nux-spoons-qa-feedback-path-of-love.73009
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  13. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    I know it's too much to ask, and ruining your request to not look, and off topic because it's too much to ask, but I'm really only interested in Dungeons when they get interactive between the designer and the builder.

    IE, here come the heroes, I choose what to throw at them on the fly.

    Why do I even mention it? Because then I could stop being a merchant and become an evil dungeon master.

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Beaumaris

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    You're hired!
     
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  15. Spoon

    Spoon Bug Brigade - Bug Hunter

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    Yea, but that ain't a top10 for a first iteration.

    But I'd steal from be inspired by the best, so I'd do the minecraft thing.
    Where you get spawn eggs. Which can be applied to specific encounter rooms.

    So either I'm running around as the bad guy and drag-drop the egg on the room.

    Or I get to be in the "Wizard of oz" room, where I have a 'chute' for each encounter room - where I can drag-n-drop the spawn egg on the chute...

    But we are past that point.
     
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  16. Vladamir Begemot

    Vladamir Begemot Avatar

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    @Spoon btw, I await the completion of this (followed it a few days ago) eagerly. And I'm trying not to look until then.

    It's fun reading your design work.

    I like your solutions to my desires too.
     
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    Stairs! don't forget matching stairs!!
     
  18. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Brigade – Bug Hunter

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    hey, you got desolis reworked...
     
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  19. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Brigade – Bug Hunter

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    do not want!

    a: the swirly blue teleporter is throughout the game as teleporter in general, not just dungeon entrance. lunar rifts, teleporters in wizard tower homes and boreas colossus and others... if you want a recognizable dungeon entrance effect, it should be something else.

    b: ...preferably something a little more subtle than a roiling, seething mass of aetheric energy. i LIKE that the crafted one has no swirly and i would very much like a floating book that doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
    Jaesun likes this.
  20. FrostII

    FrostII Avatar

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    I'm taggin' them because they can help build on your thread here.
    They know dungeons quite well.