Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat


Transcript:
One of the most controversial things we've talked about, combat in our game, is that we are experimenting with a more randomized presentation of the spells and skills that you can use during combat, much like you would see in a card game. Where instead of having constant access to all these spells and skills you know, we're trying to introduce a little bit more chaos, which I'm a big fan of, into those combat scenarios. Which is, we feel more indicative of what being in combat was really like. In the heat of combat, you don't necessarily remember everything perfectly -- you're just trying to survive. And so you're just trying to do the things that you've practiced and learned. There's a Sun Tzu Art of War quote which is "no clan survives contact with the enemy." So we're trying to capture that and that's the beauty of kind of the randomized card dealing kind of mechanics. Where you may know fireball and heal and spin and whirling sword attack but the way they present themselves is going to be random during combat. We think that it's going to reduce the sort of very predictable, "ok when I go into combat, I hit 1, then 3, then 5, then 2." You know a lot of combat with shortcut bars and skills, you just memorize a sequence and you just repeat that sequence. Or you memorize like 3 or 4 sequences. Now we're going to offset that randomness with your ability to build decks or custom lists of spells. Where you can "stack the deck" and you can say "Well I really want fireball to appear alot so I'm going to learn more than one fireball. So I'm going to learn that spell up to 5 times and I'm going to build the deck that has all 5 of the fireballs in it so I'm increasing the chance that fireball is going to show up during combat." And that is very different. We've been accused of doing different for different sake. We really do feel like it makes it a little more exciting, it makes it a little more unpredictable. And I think especially in...and it also introduces the concept of a second chance in combat where you may think all hope is lost and that one all powerful spell that you need shows up. And so we think that in multiplayer it's going to be especially exciting. And PvP where a lot of PvP in most games devolves into "I'm just going to dominate." Like one player will get the upper hand and just dominate and there's no hope that you'll ever come back. Whereas in a system where things are a little bit more randomized there's always that chance that you may come back from what seems like defeat. And so we think it makes it a little more exciting but it is very different and will take a lot of getting used to and we are going into it with eyes wide open. If it's not fun and it's horrible and everyone hates it, we could retreat to a more traditional thing but I'm holding out hope that it works and people have fun with it.

 

Oh god that sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Button mashing randomly?

So it comes down to reflex and chance to cast the spells you want?

I hope those debates are heated and theres many on the team opposing it.

 

I don't like this idea for PVP. When I am going to kill or be killed by someone I'd rather not have randomness involved. I like to PVP like sport. It's like if I went bowling against someone. The ball would come out a 10 lb. one time and then 15 lb. another time. Sometimes it would be slick with oil or weighted differently. I don't want to play a sport that doesn't let me figure out what my advantage is and use it. I certainly wouldn't want to be killed or looted due to it either. However, I understand how this would work in PVE. I have been in many WoW raids spamming the same 5 buttons in 3 different orders. This would take the boringness out of it if you actually had to think about what you were going to do next. Mixed feelings about this for sure. I personally would rather have the traditional route taken but why not try something new. If Starr jumped off a bridge I would too.

 

That system sounds really interesting. I am certainly looking forward to try it out.

 

No, no, no. I understand trying to make things different, but this sounds absurd. If you practice using skills or spells in combat, you become more effective or efficient with them IN combat. I shouldn't have to... Stack my deck. Awww this is a bad idea.

I'll give it a try in the alpha because I've already pledged, but I don't see this ending well.

 

I just want to point out one thing, that I don't know if it has been brought up...

Later in this series/interviews, RG talks about how he is an active member of the SCA, as are many of the creative forces creating the game. Why is this important? They are familiar with real, live combat. They will be looking at this system through that lens. Not, is it geared well for PvE or PvP, but does it capture the feeling of what real combat is like? If it is nothing like it and frustrating and silly, they will most likely see it that way. But if they say, yes, this actually represents what combat really feels like... they actually know what they are talking about, they aren't just postulating or guessing.

 

Ah if only that were true. Not everyone in the SCA is a trained fighter. Though they should at least have seen enough fights. Being somewhat trained myself it does frustrate me to no end when I see a combat system so obviously designed by those who either have no experience and don't know what they're doing.. or they ignore that experience.

Game systems also suffer from certain limitations while at the same time the system has to be entertaining. Real fights don't last more than a few moves. Wham bam.. someone's dead. Not very entertaining. So right away you're forced to throw some realism out the window.

RG however at least is familiar with competitive fencing. Though that particular style rarely sees use in games.

 

I realize it can't capture 100% realism, for a myriad reasons... just as no other game system can (or should) capture reality 100%... otherwise why would we spend out time playing it, when we can just live our real lives? lol

But as for the other part, even a non-fighter in the SCA (like me!) gets a pretty strong grasp of what real combat is like after enough time. It provides a very different perspective and understanding of combat from someone who has only ever played videogames about combat.

 

There certainly an emphasis on "exciting", even "new" and "different", not to mention "random". I'm more than willing to give a new system of combat a try; I have no previous experience with something like this, so it would be irresponsible of me to form an opinion either for or against it.

Starr Long states that if it doesn't work out as hoped, they have a fall-back combat system, albeit more traditional thing. That means that if the new combat system doesn't succeed, then we at least don't suffer a delay for game release.

As I have stated in posts in other threads, game development and balance has to, in order to succeed, be approached from a PvP aspect, (tweeking can always be done to the AI for PvE's sake), but as Licemeat mentions, this combat system will really make PvE a whole lot more interesting! So if it doesn't work for PvP, maybe it could be used for PvE, at least in single-player mode. (Which would be kind of cool in itself, as that would make single-player even more so a different game than open world mode.)

 

So the way I see it is that this system might do well as 'level' the play field and boil down to 'how good you have planned ahead'. As far as I know you can change the 'deck' middle of combat, costing focus to adjust to the opponent. One comment that I see often is that 'If I know how to cast heal, why would not I cast it when I want?' Go round it, have other heal items with you, plan your deck beter, change it midcombat - be prepared. And that to me seems like game inside game, good stuff.

This could give most of the people way to have "flow" of combat and way to compete in it. Combat is supposed to be chaotic where (semi) random events hapen. I would love to see skills pop up that you normally dont have BUT that are appropriate of your fightstyle/ place, like blinding your opponent with handfull of sand or your cloak.

There is numerious points to not go twitch real time combat like chivalry or mount and blade and WoW type all abilities are there for sequence repeating. Anyway, I am ready to test it out and then judge it. If it doesent work they will probably go to the safe activate skills in secuence smashing and all are happy.

 

I've been itching to design my own combat system for awhile now.. but it would be too expensive.. I think you'd appreciate it.

I see game combat very much like stage combat. Very similiar to the real thing in terms of stance and moves.. but with special rules to make it an entertaining experience. Yet it seems every game does something that's totally absurd.

As far as the card system goes I see it as an attempt to simulate what's actually going on in the character's head. When I think of it like that I think it can be interesting. Since an experience combatant doesn't do a lot of thinking. It's mostly reflex. You see an opening, you try to account for your opponent's weapon and you move. You're constantly making split second decisions, much of which is like being on auto-pilot. That experience gives you a little opportunity to think (if you're not already dead) but too much thinking is a distraction.

So here we are with different skills showing up and then going away can be thought of as the character's mind reacting to changes in the situation.. Player perception could be a problem here though as the game can only show you so much. But if your character were real.. in real combat there would be so much more visual information than a game can show.

 

In the beginning I disliked the idea but after some thought & watching this video I'm starting to understand it more & I'm starting to really like it, this video helps in me understand it better. New is not always better but doing the same thing as other games & expecting different results is madness so lets give it an honest try, we may have something here.

 

Dont know, sounds like the type of system that might be fun at first, but eventually will become a nuisance to deal with.

 

I think it'll boil down to how well it's implimented through the interface and how the combos are designed and balanced. It's not a bad idea.. but good ideas aren't always well implimented.

 

The UI setup is key to this. Like many have noted before, you don't want to just be watching slots and missing the action.

If you are gonna give a new take on combat, then you are gonna have to match the UI to it as well.

 

Unlike a lot of people, for whatever reason, I didn't come in with my own pre-conceived notions of what I want SoTA to be. I basically pledged so that the devs can develop the game they think will work best. Because when you get right down to it, all of us have been surprised in games by the fun we can have in something that wasn't our idea. In fact, if a game had to rely only on my ideas, it would probably be pretty lame!

I don't know if there's other people who feel that way? Anyway, it makes trying new things exciting rather than fearful. I'm hoping the devs surprise me quite a bit. So new combat system, let's give it a go!

 

I'm looking forward to giving it a go, anything to avoid the typical memorized sequence/min max/DPS systems.

 

It would make much more sense instead of random to go with having an action choice per the time allotted: offensive move/spell, defensive move/spell, or potion/item. There should probably be a choice for weapon swtiching as well. You can set up your action bars to hold the skills you want to employ for each category for 3 or 4 skills. That way you can choose your action, accept the consequences for your preparation, and not feel like it's all one big crap shoot.

It's also important to keep in mind that what is random are the mitigators to the player's attacks and the attacks directed at the player. If player A and B don't know what each other has prepared, then that is all the randomness needed for PVP.

For PVE, sure you may have Ice/water based weaponry and fire proof armor for going up against a dragon but if your weapon bounces off its hide or you run out of Focus before taking him down, you are toast.

Also, second chance action? WTF? My focus gets replenished to cast the powerful spell when the chips are down? That makes no sense.

 

Card System and Random Combat lol

I'll give it a go.
Bring on the ALPHA!

 

On the combat UI issue, it's interesting to see the polarization of the community into:

Stockholm syndrome acceptance.
or
Risk assessment via logical deconstruction of risk versus reward.

Also, it seems the "end game" for the combat system will evidently boil down to using one type of magic and obtaining focus regen. I was hoping for something with more variety, with respect to "builds".