Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by smack, Oct 21, 2013.

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  1. Ara

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    You're welcome.

    Randomness and luck don't match with needed player skills to perform well and i like to take part in a combat system that demand player skills and not a system based on luck and randomness.

    The decider of a battle should not be getting a lucky card thrown at me but my skill as a player.

    But thanks for your input and i will not take part in this card combat experimenting since it will never come even close to a player skill based combat system. If they stick to this card system then i am out.
     
  2. Ara

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    If it is random then the game play me. I want to play the game and develop my combat skills, this wont happen with random choices the game decided for me to try.

    This system cater for luck and a outcome of the battle that was based on something else then me practising my combat skills. It would be a good system though for the ones that need luck during combat.
     
  3. monxter

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    But there's always some kind of randomness. Say crit chance, dodge chance, fizzle chance or whatever... game always plays you too.
     
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  4. Umbrae

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    Even in a precision game, I have forgotten to use a skill that would helped me win a battle. The stress and sequence of the encounter just made me forget. However, that was me the player not my character who was much more seasoned for that encounter. In an RPG its not your skill, but the skill of the character. So to answer your question, whether Heal, Fireball or Invisible comes up in battle is related to whether your character is skilled enough for those options to be available. Just because he/she has them doesn't mean he/she is skilled enough to remain calm enough during the encounter to make the right decision.

    Once again, in an RPG system - and not an action game - this can be rationalized and is no different than more traditional RPG systems. It is simply an abstraction to the real time representation of your character. If you want the ability to cast something at will then train your character appropriately by either pinning skills or stacking your deck.

    The issue everyone brings up is "but I want to do X". However, in an RPG its about your character and not you. In D&D a good DM will not allow you to make your character do something that they shouldn't be able to do. That might be the simply don't allow the action, or give you a negative outcome from insisting they do it.

    Once again I understand, from a competitive and action perspective, why this upsets people; however, in my opinion, this is just how RPGs work and very few of my real world actions should go uninterrupted through my character in to the game world.
     
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  5. vjek

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    This "randomness" you're referring to is entirely different than a random UI.
     
  6. Time Lord

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    D&D Trivia of some of the Men Who Stare at Goats;

    When the US Army National Training Center first opened, it was opened by a very mixed bag of characters. Yet among this strange batch of characters was Lt. Col. Jim Channon (who was played by Jeff Bridges in the movie). When he was looking into the question of why some had had high mass combat survivability rate over others, he encountered a certain D&D group who just happened have about 1/4 of them playing.. but you'll have to ask him about that :cool:

    SotA's D&D inspired Chaos System, I believe will widen the thought proses in our encounters, thus giving something back in an improvisational way of thinking and broaden our wondering thoughts as to what could be possible in seemingly impossible situations, as well as providing wild card situational results in our more common encounters.

    Widening the thinking proses in any game, is a big plus in-game for my buck$ in game attention span and interest!
    "Bring on the Chaos"!
    ~TL~:rolleyes:
     
  7. monxter

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    it's different, but an element of randomness too. Our UI's won't be a random card game anyway, we have a choice in planning the skills. Some can be locked down, we can choose many or fewer, and make the rotations faster or slower, AFAIK, however things can still change. But I see enough control to make it work.
     
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  8. High Baron O`Sullivan

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    is everything.
    +1 for Randomness!
     
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  9. Ara

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    What you describe above is exactly how it was in old Ultima Online, a combat system that was not based on cards. randomness or luck but by finding your spells in your memory and then manage to time them exactly right.

    The less experienced got stressed and didnt time their cure when they were poisoned or other less experienced players missed their heal on their teammate cause they were stressed and full of adrenaline.

    Their is no difference with having your skills on the keyboard or as cards on your screen when it comes to this comparison.

    The only difference is that the card system is random and based on luck, a poor system.

    All learned skills should be available to use and it is up to me to learn use them properly.
     
  10. vjek

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    Minimum deck sizes to ensure unpredictability, the punitive locking mechanism, and affecting rotations are bandaids on an arterial laceration, imo. All each of these do is further emphasize that the random UI alienates a portion of the target demographic. That, by itself, is enough reason to be skeptical of such a system, to me. That an extremely similar system (without the random UI) was not enough to make or break another game (Spellborn) is, to me, further proof this is not a genre-changing mechanic.

    For the record, I love randomness. I have stated many times I want every aspect of SotA combat to be completely unpredictable and random, EXCEPT the UI. Everything except that. Anything except that.

    If dungeons were procedurally generated, if opponent abilities were procedurally generated by type, quantity, and skill, if weather was procedurally generated by effect, location, time, if combo effects were random, if particle effects, sounds effects, hell even consumables were all unique and random per character, great. Loving every one of those ideas. Give me bonus random abilities by day & night, by location, or by target. Just don't randomize the UI.
     
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  11. Umbrae

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    I am glad you agree with me then. :)

    I disagree that there is any more of less randomness or luck then any other system, but we don't know until we see it. However, like I have said before, from playing Magic The Gathering the luck or randomness was not something that was prevalent: the skill required might be different from other games, but skill was still the major factor.
     
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  12. Mishri

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    So I typed up some differences between the combat system but I decided instead to do a different experiment.

    Results on google, Spellborn combat is bad/not fun and Spellborn combat is good/fun. Limiting results to people who actually played, not comments on videos or videos, and only first page results.

    First the Fun/good:

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/929341-the-chronicles-of-spellborn/47612204

    "One of Spellborn's most talked about strengths is its unique combat system"
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/05/05/the-chronicles-of-spellborn-review?page=2

    "It takes some practice and I’m not sure I’d ever be good at it, but it is for sure a lot less dull than standing around and hitting frostblast repeatedly"
    http://spinksville.wordpress.com/2009/03/26/a-little-touch-of-spellborn-in-the-night/

    This one sounds kind of neutral, really just a description:
    http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/61086/


    Okay searched for bad/not fun:

    http://www.keenandgraev.com/2009/04/05/my-brief-jaunt-into-the-chronicles-of-spellborn
    "Combat was engaging. I actually liked the wheel. " woops, that wasn't bad... ??? Someone in the combats said the game is not bad, maybe thats why it came up?

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/929341-the-chronicles-of-spellborn/49235822
    "Spellborn is more like Spellbored. Its a cheap game, not worth the money." not really about the combat.

    http://www.hardwareheaven.com/gamingreviews.php?reviewid=753
    he doesn't even mention randomness in the combat, just the targetting system, and any references to bad is Not bad, and isn't about the combat


    Okay here is one that is actually not positive:
    "each time you hit an ability on one row you go to the next. Add on the target reticule that must be kept on your target at all times in order to attack and mix that with trying to get thr right nuber pressd to execute the right move in the right row and you have a pretty clunky combat system. At best it takes some serous getting used to. I give kudos for trying something new but in my opinion it deters from the game experience as opposed to enhancing it. "
    http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/ivan50265/032009/3579_The-Chronicles-of-Spellborn-First-Impressions-


    http://adingworld.net/2009/01/04/heroes-shards-and-middle-earth/

    "the combat system takes a quite different approach. I think it is brilliant; it is fairly easy to understand, but will require practice to become good with it. "

    http://dragonchasers.com/2009/03/15/the-chronicles-of-spellborn-initial-impressions/
    "I get sick of circle-straffing around like a maniac during every fight. In my ideal MMO, my “skills” come in the form of tactics…mental skills. The actual combat should be about my character’s skills matching up against his opponent’s. I don’t play genres like FPSers much because I’m not very good at them and they bother my wrist.
    The shame of it is that I find I don’t even use that slick Skill Deck system because I’m so focused on circling the enemy while keeping it targeted. I just hold down the mouse button and level the deck on my ‘fast skills’ column and basically let it auto-attack for me. Watching the skilldeck to see what “column” I have selected, and what skill is in that row and column, and whether that skill is ready or cooling down, is just too much for me while I’m also watching my enemy in 3D space and constantly moving so it can’t hit back. I seem to do better spamming 1 skill and moving than using tactics and paying attention to the skill deck to put it to good use."​
    So that one is a bit negative, but mostly about too much going on to utilize the random deck system.​
    Then if you'd like you can look through this:​
    So from what I've read on spellborn the combat had nothing to do with the failure of the game.​
     
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  13. Mishri

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    I'll once again re-iterate my position on this idea of "RANDOM UI"

    The UI is not random. It is sequential. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, -, = in order is a sequence, a pattern you can follow. As abilities come up you'll know your next one will be at this key or button that you can likely assign to whatever you want. So in your peripheral vision you'll see what comes up and not even have to think about what to push, because you've re-trained the way you think of things. It's no longer this ability is tied to this button. It is now, the next ability will be on this key.
     
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  14. Ara

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    By introducing randomness and having luck getting the right card at a certain time from the game you remove alot of the player skill needed and goes toward a game where luck means more. It also remove the player control of the battle and he becomes dependent on variables outside his own control.

    Card systems that is random have more randomness then a game where players have access to all their skills anytime.

    And no i wont be partaking in this card PvP.
     
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  15. Umbrae

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    That's where we disagree. You want to play an action game where your skill trumps all else. I want to play an RPG where the character is the intermediary to my actions. That is ok, but not what I would define as an Ultima RPG which is what I thought SOTA was going to be.
     
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  16. Ara

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    It is also claimed to be the spiritual successor of Ultima Online and i dont see this combat system even remotely close to that good ol one we played in UO.
     
  17. Umbrae

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    I guess that highlights the issues of using two different games with a spiritual successor tag line: you are going to disappoint someone.

    In any case, I support the direction the devs are taking.
     
  18. Mishri

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    Hahah.. UO combat.. lol.. rose colored glasses... rose colored indeed.


    I suppose you could argue it's elegance was in it's simplicity, but seriously, the combat, especially the PVM was seriously lacking. The only thing that made pvp so interesting was all the ways people figured out to do things to trick people, trap people, and use non-combat things in combat to make it more entertaining.. otherwise you are stuck with some pretty boring tactics... run up and hit 'em with your weapon(have trapped bags incase of paralyze), or cast some spells, that people figured the order and best mana/damage ratios. like keep your reflect magic up, blessed, then hit them with a magic arrow, curse, e-bolt to death. you could also throw in an explosion+flamestrike to finish them off if they are healing too much. or explosion+e-bolt was more common for better mana/damage.

    For the time it was great, loved playing uo, 15 years ago. don't care much for it anymore, even going to T2A and uoforever shards.
     
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  19. Joviex

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    Complete non-sequitur. It smells of mix of denying the antecedent and argument from fallacy.

    IF A, then B. If Not A, then Not B. Wrong. A and B are not related.

    I guess driving my car is not random, because, ya know, I have a steering wheel and pedals that are in the same place everytime I get in the car.
     
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  20. LoneStranger

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    You know who randomizes their UI?

    Sneaky shareware developers who are trying to annoy you into buying the product by popping up a "Please Buy This!" alert and swapping the [Close] and [Purchase] buttons around.
     
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