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Suggestion: Use adventure level to limit the number of skills one can train

Discussion in 'Release 39 Feedback Forum' started by Spoon, Feb 28, 2017.

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  1. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

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    @Chris

    Short version:
    • limit skills allowed to train to 2+1/5lvl
    • Add that number to the 'K' key interface
    • Add icon on right "unassigned skill training" to highlight the decision making (like broken armor or low ammo icons)

    Long version:

    So I meet a lot of new players being very confused about the XP pool and about skill leveling.
    Almost all of them buy any and all skills they can and train them all at once. Which for the casuals means that their gains are spread too thin on too many inate skills giving a sense of no progress.
    This in turn decrease the "stay" factor of the game.

    That got me thinking what if we instead of letting them train all skills would limit it early on and scale it with adv level Then all of that would be more of a natural progression.

    So when starting the game the pre-selected build would have set two skills to train for me, the rest are on maintain or hold.
    When I level up 5 levels I get the notification in upper right that I can set a new skill to train. I click it and can use the K-key interface to train something more.
    If I set something back to maintain I get back that count and can turn on gains on something else.

    This gives a real feeling of progression when unlocking gains while it slowly ease the new users into the skill pool & gains system.
    It also prevents the current feeling of no progress most casuals get where they feel nothing improves since everything is defaulted to gain.

    Since the "more gain slots available" icon gives a small nudge every 5 levels the users get reminded to think about these choices every now and then, while the exact choice made each time is small and not overwhelming.
    Helping the more casual crowd into it without being too much.

    Once they hit level 60 or so then we can skip the count and one can train whatever one wants.

    @Elgarion
    Could you do me a favor and raise this suggestion for discussion on next Hospitalers meet? Thank you.
     
  2. Selene

    Selene Avatar

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    I would rather see something in game that better explains the system than a restriction.
     
  3. Spoon

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    Sure, I really hope they do a do-over of that Skills window.
    However explanations doesn't limit the complexity and number of choices, while a restriction would.
    Nor would explanations hinder the casuals hitting that no-progression-due-to-too-many-innates threshold.
     
  4. Selene

    Selene Avatar

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    I guess that's kind of my point. I like that it's complex and twisty and you need to think about things. Being restricted in how many skills I can train at a time would be really irritating to me personally.

    It wouldn't? If they know it's too many innates at once hindering their progress... why wouldn't that solve the problem?
     
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  5. redfish

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    The problem isn't just the skill window, its that the skill window doubles as the training interface. This is really horrible from both a UI perspective and a gameplay perspective. They really need to rethink how skill trainers work, how their services are presented to the player through the UI.
     
  6. brhanson2

    brhanson2 Avatar

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    Right now you can really only train 1 skill if you want it to actually move. I see no advantage of limiting the number you pick. If you pick 20 you level up very very slowly.
     
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  7. Earl Atogrim von Draken

    Earl Atogrim von Draken Avatar

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    Your idea kills the idea behind the system.
    The limitless skill system where you can build whatever build you want.
    Limiting progression the way you ask for would limit the builds as well.
     
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  8. Elgarion

    Elgarion Dev Emeritus Dev Emeritus

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    Sure thing @Spoon , I'll bring it up ;)
     
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  9. Elnoth

    Elnoth Avatar

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    I think any new player that doesn't do any reading will be confused because this is not a "here, you levelled up heres a point to spend on a skill" type game. But like all new things, most people seem to come to terms with it after a while when they work it out.

    I also don't think "spreading too thin" with passives is a problem, and I say this because most advice I have seen both in the game and on the forums about "your XP pool is too low because you have too many innates training" is simply wrong. You can have 16 innates all training and still draw less XP from the pool that when you have 1 innate training, as the XP spent is split 1/n based on n innates training. It depends more on the level of the inante, rather than how many innates. So too many innates will more than likely slow down the XP spend which will cause less damage to a new player than one that leaves the one innate on until it is such a high level that is sucks their XP pool too low to train active skills effectively.
     
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  10. TeddyMIT

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    I have seen a lot of players more than 80 level also do not know what role they play
    There are many players just copy the skills of other high players do not know how to make good use of
    Limit the number of these issues does not change the learning
    Efficient arrangements for beginners is more important
     
  11. Gix

    Gix Avatar

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    (to the quotes above)
    This is because the current system is un-intuitive and contradicts the very nature of a "on use" system.

    You should be able to have all of your skills set to "train" and still manage to overcome the same obstacles as someone who's focusing on a few skills. The difference is that if you USE all of your skills, then each of those skills are effectively weaker but the combinations should still allow you to succeed.

    This isn't the case in SotA. You get XP starved. You can't perform in combat because every skill bellow level 40 is garbage... even if you manage to get your skills above level 40, none of your skills are good enough to kill decent-difficulty enemies so you won't get the XP to compensate. The game THINKS you're high enough level, but you aren't. You're essentially going to always be behind the curve, never being able to do content that others are tackling.

    Why? Because SOME people enjoy spreadsheets.

    Setting skills to "not train" should be for those who DON'T WANT those skills, not to allow other skills to train more effectively. If you want to level up the skill, why shouldn't you want to set it to "train"?

    No amount of tutorial or "informing players" is going to fix this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  12. mike11

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    Sounds like a pretty good idea, actually. However it would work even better maybe with a less restricted requirement system (the trees) for some abilities, as well, they haven't fully implemented un-learn, it seems.
     
  13. Adam Crow

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    I would be fine with this, but only if there is a way to shut it off. This would seriously slow an experienced player down if they had to start over or create a new character. Skills can be left on train until around level 50 or 60 before they start draining enough experience to make a difference. It doesn't make sense to penalize people who understand a system just to help the ones that don't.

    I like the idea for new players though. I think it may help a bit, but it still doesn't solve the problem that most players will face. No matter how many skills you are training, all you have to do is leave 1 skill to train... if that skill is 80+, you're going to starve you're experience pool at some point and start wondering what's going on.
     
  14. TarrNokk

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    I don't see any reason to restrict the skill system, as it is a unique system which makes a big part of the game.
    Once you have the knowledge on how this system works, you can fine tune skills for your individual needs.
    I do not agree to the statement that the skill system is too hard to understand. Hey, most players of the game are grown and intelligent enough to understand a system of a game, even if it is un intuitive, everyone will learn it. SotA is no handholding game, so let there still be the challengen to discover all possibilities.
     
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  15. Beaumaris

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    I'm not in favor of skills limitations. The flexibility of the system is the draw.

    Instead, use the Oracle (or similar) as the solution. Make experience burn and decay more obvious by integrating it into the Avatar's knowledge of themselves, just as is done with the Oracle and virtues, quest progress, etc. using the chat system.

    For example, the chat log could display messages like this: "Your learning is waning slightly, progress towards mastery is diminishing" or "Your learning has increased greatly, progress towards mastery has improved."

    I'm assuming the game engine could calculate experience differentials over time by character, just like the Oracle tracks virtue, then offer advice back to us. It could even be the Oracle who tells us this in chat (but doesn't have to be).

    Simple chat cues like that every 15 minutes would tell me a lot, without looking at the numbers, and also make the experience system much more integrated into the character experience instead of being a purely mechanical system.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2017
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  16. runicpaine

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    Restrictions are an awful idea. Complexity is part of what makes things interesting.... though it is frustrating to understand at first. Rift did a good job of tackling this issue with tutorial videos in-game as well as guided progression for simple builds. Once you were eligible for a new skill, based on the class/build you chose, it would 'suggest' which path to take. You could deviate from that path if you wished and it would cancel the guided aspect of skill choice/progression.

    It might be good for trainers to open chat dialogue first instead of just the skills menu immediately. They could have answers to FAQ and tips based on your responses to questions they might ask.

    Just because something is complicated doesn't mean it's hard to understand if explained concisely.

    This issue is more about a learning curve and easing the pain points related to that rather than redesigning the system to be a watered down boring version of itself for the sake of not making people learn.
     
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  17. Ravalox

    Ravalox Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    The only thing in the skill tree that may bleed XP away are the inate skills; otherwise the XP goes to the skills you use. So limiting the skills they can get at any time doesn't make sense since there are no classes, and a player can change from Archery to Sword and Board or Blacksmithy to Carpentry in a snap. Locking the skill tree to any degree would impact that ability.

    If anything, how about a popup when opening a new skill tree warning of inate skills selected to learning in other trees. (in other words education of suggested maintenance when turning on/adding new skills.)

    One of the key "WOW" factors for this game is the lack of classes and restrictions on the way a player plays. Even if the player does turn on everything they grow based on the way they play, if they play more they grow faster. It's a very realistic skills system.
     
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  18. Womby

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    I agree that it is currently possible for people to make choices that result in them experiencing little or no feeling of progression. They have that freedom.
    I don't think the best answer is to take away those choices. I would rather let people have the freedom to make mistakes, even if they suffer avoidable consequences.

    I would however like to see some kind of optional feedback to the player so they can check if they are making really bad choices. Maybe they could ask the Oracle for advice on their skill selections. Things like the number/kinds of skills that they are levelling up, and perhaps their choice of combat glyphs.

    Example:
    "I see that you are currently learning 13 skills, including 5 innates. Given the rate at which you usually acquire experience I recommend that you reduce this number substantially. The fewer skills you learn simultaneously, the more progress you will see in those skills. You can set aside the other skills and come back to them later. Some of the skills you are levelling up will experience a very high rate of fizzle, and are not appropriate for your current choice of armor. You are of course free to ignore this advice, and equally welcome to seek additional advice as you level up."

    This is reasonably immersive (doesn't mention XP or glyphs), and avoids being too specific.
     
  19. Skyo

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    Love this idea
     
  20. Gix

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    Except you're effectively leagues weaker than someone who trains 5 skills. While that player has 5 skills in their 40s+, you have 20 in their 10s (I'm using bogus math just to paint a picture).

    You'd have the same amount of Adv Levels, the game will both tell you'd be able to do the same content, yet you won't be able to do some of the content that the other guy will be able to do. Because a [Blade] at 40 is better than both [Blade] and [Healthy] at 20.

    It is flawed on SO many levels and the devs are merely counting on the fact that people won't notice because "leveling to 40 is quick and easy" but it is noticeable and it is garbage. Do you know why it's "quick and easy"? It's because you lock down other skills! That's the meta of the game, lock down all your skills and only set 2-3 skills to train at a time. The loading screen tip even tells you this because even the devs KNOW that it's un-intuitive as hell!

    That's not how a "on use" system should function!
     
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