The Combat System....

No that isn't the issue, even playing a Black horse and Cherry Tree on Bass (the one song I can play on hard) I STILL had to look at the bar instead of the dancing (at least when the notes were there, there aren't that many for bass ). Its the style of game and for Guitar Hero thats fine (though I don't know why they wasted the money on Motion Capture for Metallica knowing that), its NOT fine for THIS game

 

All right, I'm going to bet my pledge on this. For all to see, you guys got it. Not random?

Record the following, and you have my pledge:
1) Start off in peace mode.
2) Set up a deck, of your choice, at level 50+ (or whatever level it is where you get the max glyphs; you can't use a newbie character where you only get to have 5 cards rotate).
3) Get your ten slots, no locked glyphs and get the Focus ability that slows down the discard time along with speeds up draw times. This benefits you. You may also pick up other Focus talents and whatever glyphs you want, so long as you don't lock any glyphs.
4) Call out every single glyph you're going to draw, up to 10 (the full hotbar - no more, no less). If there will be multiples of a glyph, say how many of that glyph you will get. Also call out slugs if your deck will have them. You must also be able to make one combo (no more, no less) and must call out what combo that will be.
5) Now go into war mode. Let all glyphs draw up to your ten slots.
6) Now go into peace mode to wipe your deck clean. Call out the next ten glyphs you will draw up to at once, following the above rules.
7) Repeatfor a total of 10 times in the same recording.

If it isn't random, this will be super easy for anyone to accurately call out all 100 glyphs, including the combo that is easy to determine (Thrust + Double Slash = Quadruple Slash; all you need to do is make sure you have a Thrust and Double-Slash in your 10 glyph line-up). Might take, what, 3 minutes to set up the deck and about 3-4 minutes of recording (full ten glyph draw is about 10-15 seconds)? Less than ten minutes for my pledge.

I am serious about this. Any funny business (edits, flashes, cuts, stalls) forfeits the attempt.

 

First, I can't answer your question about 'passion', because I've never been passionate about any combat system..
(Unless you count gathering razor sharp witty comebacks that determine success in insult fights from Monkey Island
"My handkerchief will wipe up your blood!" "So you got that job as janitor, after all.")

I'm not in total disagreement here, but I felt from the beginning, that truly immersive, attack / counter attack - hairpin timing with a precision controlled attack system just isn't possible with the way this game's multiplayer mechanics function. With one server, and every input step constantly needing to be gathered, calculated, and sent out to all the participants, I believe a different play style - one that is more strategic and nearly turn-based is required. Hence, the glyph deck system. It is a compromise, but it can still be innovative and fun. That's what matters to me.

 

Best combat ever.

 

This is a simple misunderstanding.
Yes the glyphs are dealt out of your deck at random. Everyone knows that. That doesn't make the system random.
That's like saying MtG is not strategic because you have to shuffle your deck. I hope this explanation helps.

 

one of the saddest things about this Frankenstein system is that it strips the skills and spells of there identity because they all have to be valid options in case they are the ones which comes up.

You can't design the fireball spell to be perfect for use in tight narrow caves while the magic arrow works best on fast moving targets because that means that if you have a fast moving target and all that comes up is fireball you would have people breaking keyboards

Also using unique reagent combinations for each spell goes out the window when you have no idea what the next spell to come up will be.

All the "solutions" people keep coming up with are simply bandaids designed to wall paper over issues which don't actually have to exist in the first place.

 

There's no misunderstanding. You said it isn't random, I quoted it in my post. Other people keep claiming the system isn't random, as well, so there must be merit to such a statement.

If you cannot state what abilities, in combat, you will get, by definition, combat through the deck system is random.

 

You'll get the abilities you trained for and put in your deck. = Not random.

 

I think the better term would be probabilistic, the more cards you have of one type the more likely it's going to turn up. Probabilities implies the need for skill, the ability to manage the odds in your favor. Otherwise poker & bridge would just be a random numbers game, no need to do anything because nothing you do will affect the outcome.

My take on the current deck system is that it's fine if the combat is turn based. It needs to be simplified because in real-time combat, you should be watching your opponent more rather than keeping an eye on whether the card or combo you need turns up on your deck.

It gets rapidly worse as soon as your opponents number more than one.

 

I like where this thread is going. Please ditch the asinine combat deck system. Wonder if the devs are listening?

 

I hate to say it mike. I had hopes for the deck system, but ditching the system now is very likely the best thing that can be done to help this project be the best it can be.

 

I used to hate the concept of the deck system, when I first used it I still didn't like it that much and I did find myself looking at glyphs too much.........after practice I only have a quick glance and don't find it an issue at all. The main criticism I have is that I want to see the hand size increase from 10 to say 14. I also want to see consumable removed from the decks and be available at any time with an appropriate cooldown.

I like to have choice and options, the ideal combat system for me was the UO style (ie being able to cast loads of spells whenever I wanted). This kind of system isn't really achievable due to the control system, so a deck system kind of gives an 'ok' compromise.

 

Thank you for the video on innovation. I really enjoyed it. Hopefully we will get this worked out. I really feel that it is important not to give up. I am not in total disagreement, I want to see see a UI revamp as mentioned before and I'm not saying my ideas are best, but I'd like to see what's behind door #2 or door #3 as in the game show 'Let's make a Deal'.

 

C'mon, man. You know as well as I do you're grasping on this one. The input is random (hotkeys don't activate unlocked glyphs consistently), the skill availability is random (you cannot guarantee when a glyph will appear, only in vague frequencies), and the output is random (RNG-based damage, as is standard for most RPGs/MMOs). The combat system is random. You can increase your chances of skill availability, but you still can't guarantee when you'll have the ability available. It is randomly generated from a deck, ie. your class.

Assume for a moment that the deck system is different. Glyphs can be hotkeyed directly; you don't have to use the hotbar, but 1 is always Off-Hand Attack, 2 is always Thrust, 3 is always Double-Slash, whether it's available or not. If it is, and you hit 1, then you Off-Hand Attack; if it isn't, nothing happens. Even if you take out the random input, that skill, that glyph, that ability is still not available to you reliably. You still have to wait for it to randomly "draw" from the deck on the back end. You can increase the odds that it'll appear in any given draw by having 5 of them, but when you need a particular attack, you cannot guarantee it will be available. It is random when that card will appear. It doesn't always happen to be the fourth card in the deck, or show up on even or odd draws.

Its appearance in your hand is random.

I think you're underestimating a significant element to something like poker: bluffing. That can turn a pair into a winning hand against a full house if you can bluff properly. You don't get to stack the deck in your favor, but rather manage your randomly generated circumstances. In poker, to mitigate damage (ie, money loss), you can take the loss and fold. Would you imply that in a given battle, because you have barely tentative control over your character's action at any given moment, that you should just "fold" when the going gets tough? I can wager not many people will want to charge valiantly into battle only to turn tail because, "my character forgot how to fight, brb when he remembers".

Turn-based, yes. Outside of an MMO that has direct immersion with the rest of the environment, mobs and players, yes. But not real-time that requires you to pay attention to the action around you. Not only in group combat does it get chaotic and button-mashing, relying solely on nukes and out-DPSing your opponent with quick draws, but ranged vs. melee becomes an issue too. It's easier to set the tempo by running and strafing backwards, throwing fireballs, than to accurately try to intercept with a sword while still managing your deck, hoping that when you do eventually reach your target your abilities are still available to hit them with.

I want to point people to my "annoyances" per Smack's thread: Top 11 Annoyances.

Note my response:

Even I thought the combat system was just a balance issue. But you know what happened? The novelty wore off. Other issues got fixed where I could focus more on combat routinely. I started recognizing trends in my fighting, how I wasn't paying any attention at all to what was going on. Like so many others who have mentioned this, I would run into a fight, look down at my bar, and only when glyphs no longer lit up did I realize I had murdered everything in my path.

The reviews and commentary are clear: the combat has to change, and it has to change yesterday.

 

You say in your post: 'When you need a certain attack.' I believe part of the reason for stacking is to help preserve that needed attack for when you want to use it. This is why I suggested allowing stacked glyphs to not timeout until you've switched targets to another opponent. The compromise would be to lock away a percentage of your focus pool per stacked glyph. This would allow anyone to save a drawn glyph in their hand until they feel ready to use it.

You can also perform mind-wipes and other focus tricks to get the glyph into your hand at the time you want it. The capabilities are there, and the 'random elements' keep fights from becoming repetitive, and the challenge of truly mastering the system keeps combat interesting for a very long time.

 

Until that stack times out and drops. And again, you have to invest so many points to just maintain control over your character's basic functions it kills character uniqueness. The system does everything it can to hurt potential strategy leading up to the fight (field positioning, ambushes). Besides, as I've already pointed out, your suggestion opens up so many balancing issues it isn't a viable option. Even if I couldn't standby with 2-3 nukes, if I had 2-3 friends, all with 5-stacked nukes, we could just run around ganking groups and loling our little hearts away. "2, 1, drop". Bewm. Cast times are suprisingly short, probably to accommodate the system in place.

I can promise you the second the average gamer loses a fight in a Shardfall with looting rules because they didn't have access to a needed ability they specc'd into, they will ragelog. It happens two or three times, they will ragequit. They can play any other game that has better mechanics that doesn't penalize people on randomness. Again, prove me wrong and call the glyphs. I put my money where my mouth is.

 

No you are not, there is not a chance that you will honor that agreement.
This since you have not covered all scenarios so that is easy to exploit.


Plan A - lawyering
Follow your instructions to the exact letter, using some loopholes that you have provided.
For example, put two glyphs into the deck, which means that you can only draw those or slugs.
Call out the combo as per 4.
Given that one can restart it shouldn't take more than about 10000-30000 restarts to have a reasonable shot at success. Depending on the value of your pledge that could be worth it.

I could probably find more loopholes if I spend some time and you don't edit the text.

Plan B - cheat
Do the ten recordings, add voice sound afterwards. There is no chance you can detect that.

Plan C - crowdsource
Get enough people to do Plan A for it to reach critical mass of probability.

Plan D - lifeline
Call Chris, tell him someone is dissing his system and show him your posts, get the RNG loaded. Get you and a live recording with the loaded RNG, call it out.


Also it's a true scotsman/moving goalposts scenario. One could easily do this in absurdum.
With a loose enough definition of "random" even the Locked Hotbar is random.
This since in a similar scenario as you outline one couldn't call out the result of activating skills on the Locked Hotbar.
But that doesn't make such a scenario "random" it just means that we have moved what we measure from draw to results. Nor does it make the locked hotbar as random as the random-draw bar.
Just like pointing out the "Random Draw" part of the random-draw bar, doesn't make it pure random.

So if we take @Miracle Dragon 's statement
"it really is strategic/not random"
and add just a single omitted word I think that we can all agree
"it really is strategic not just random"
since we get to stack the deck. Please note that even given strategic we can get your fumble scenario of continously getting "the wrong" draw.

I liked @Numa 's term of probabilistic to the system, even if the draw from the pool is random, doesn't make the system itself random.


But again like I said in the beginning, all of this argumentation is an excercise in futility. This since this is based on personal preference and playstyle.
Neither side will convince the other side that what they find fun or not fun, isn't or is, based on these arguments. It just won't happen.

I fully understand that someone who doesn't find the deckbuilding to be fun, nor the random draw to be fun, that they can't be convinced that they should spend skill points and time/grind on getting skill points to handle an exception to the base system so that they can adjust it more (but not completely) to their liking.
But likewise, for those who do find the deckbuilding and random draw to be fun, no argument will convince them that what they are find fun is wrong because some others prefer something else.

So if the game truly is supposed to allow us to have both playstyles then the skill trees (focus mostly) need to be adjusted accordingly. So that those who couldn't care less about deckbuilding and random draw don't have to spend any time/grind jumping through hoops to get it to do a classical hotbar.
Which means a completely seperate tree for deckbuilding/random draw which can be ignored by those who dislike it.


Just like with the futile PvE vs PvP discussions, I fully believe that a game that encompass all of these styles are possible and that we can get there if people keep the discussions productive.

 

I feel pretty neutral about the combat system. I do not like stacking glyphs and I agree that you have to look at the hotbar too much but I do not hate the system. I have a possible suggestion to reduce some of the randomness though:

A skill called preparation. It would allow you to pick skills that you have learned and assign them for different situations such as combat starting (self initiated), combat starting (by being attacked) etc. When that specific event triggers you get the glyph you picked beforehand. How many stacks you could possibly get with this skill is a balance issue and would have to be tested. Maybe it could even allow you a chance to autocast certain skills like block or dodge, when you are attacked for the first time (if you pass a skill/stat/rng check).

This kind of system would make sense in my opinion. When you ambush someone you can really focus on what you plan to do, so preparation works for that. Ambushing is much easier than being ambushed though, so there needs to be a balance. Reacting to things would probably require a higher level of the skill.

 

I've already written the game off as a loss in my mind; it can get better, maybe, but not any worse. It's pretty much bottom of the barrel for me. I am well aware of what people could do to get my pledge; if the community is that crappy, then the one thing people harp on - how "wonderful" the community is - would be a proven farce, especially if the video was supported by anyone. We all know what I proposed is impossible to pull off "legitimately"; somehow doing it means foul play. Not to mention, if someone would go through all that trouble to "prove me wrong" and not see the irony in ultimately proving me right, then there are bigger issues than dishonesty afoot.

So don't pretend you know what my intentions are, or that I wouldn't honor giving it away in this scenario.

 

keeping things on topic here ... Just trying to fix the deck system is a waste of time.

There should be no more radical changes to please the community at this point. If it is still annoying, and those annoyances aren't going to be resolved, (rather it is likely it will be added to) then drop the deck system. There is no way it is going to gain any more fans, and if it hasn't gained acceptance at this point then it never will.

Also the static deck is not satisfactory for me to choose while the deck system still exists! I do not feel comfortable moving over to a static deck if somebody can use that annoying stack and combine system and beat me, and it is going to get more annoying when the new strategic features are added to the deck. I will continue to use that annoying stack and combine system but who other than a person who pledged for the game is going to want to play something they find annoying.


Months ago I asked for an auto stack and possibly some kind of permanence to the glyphs so we aren't stressing over it all the time. I don't think I expressed my present annoyance enough. I was satisfied in the hope that this current system was going to change because I was still annoyed, distracted, and stressed by it. Now that I realize it is not going to change then I have to accept its current state and that means I don't really like it. I think I made a mistake ever supporting it.