The false "immersion" of being directionless

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vladamir Begemot, Oct 1, 2019.

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  1. Astirian

    Astirian Avatar

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    A lot of games will let you stay in Seattle if you wish, but they'll really really encourage you to get to Chicago (and yeah, not make that too hard).

    "Thanks for saving Seattle dude! There's more work to be done, of course but uh... They about to hang an innocent in Chicago. Please go help! Like, as soon as you can would be good."
     
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  2. Vladamir Begemot

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    That's fine, don't use the ticket.
     
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  3. Vladamir Begemot

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    Perhaps the location of the waist is misunderstood. In a normal game that would be the middle numbers, Shroud is exponential. What does an exponential body look like?
     
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  4. Vladamir Begemot

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    I hope not. Lesson 1 in "Lessons learned 215" is "Don't release prematurely. And certainly don't release Episdoe 2 before you've finsihed episode 1".

    There is a lot of low hanging Episode 1 fruit that must be finished first, as it is where the new players ultimately stick with the agme or bail. The topic of this thread, as well as the pacing of Tiers. If we dared to dream, even the things @Bowen Bloodgood mentioned.

    Releasing Episode 2 is just another missed opportunity at this point. It'll go by with a mention in only two websites, garner no press, and probably cause a lot of people to give up. It must not be released until Episode 1 is good enough to hold players, so that when it comes out it can be declared as "Shroud of the Avatar pulls a comeback!"
     
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  5. Spoon

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    It was an old discussion. Back then we only had tier 1-5.
    Nowadays we also have 6-10 but within those existing zones, like most of the boss fights.

    However the perception remains that it is too heavy in the easiest zones since you outgrow them faster than what it takes to explore them all. So you only do about 40% of the low tier zones before moving onwards upwards.
    Where if the starting 6 zones were to have more progression and be seen as the way to level up from t1-t2, then almost all other could start with that being assumed and go for t3 directly. etc

    But that is of course all wishful thinking since E2 should most likely take priority.
     
  6. Sulaene Moon

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    But he's right, Ep1 should be completed first. Especially since Ep2 won't be F2P right away so new players will be starting in Ep1 content and it needs to be 100% polished (or close as you can get) to retain those players so they stay and want to purchase Ep2 content. You're probably right though too, I'm sure they have already started on Ep2 content by now. :(
     
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  7. Astirian

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    The one thing I think Shroud gets very right though, is not having WoW type zones like a Risk board. Where it's just this sanitized "you can go here between levels 24-28" malarkey. Or level 22 if you've got mad skillz. I like that it's sticking to its sandbox ethos (same thing applies to single-player if you think about U7).
     
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  8. Vladamir Begemot

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    Agreed, Game Design 216, "What Shroud Got Right". There is a lot there.
     
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  9. Sulaene Moon

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    I still think it is like this in Shroud, when my adventure level has reached a certain point. Creatures go from red to green when you are too high or too low for a zone. Just like in WoW and the others, there are zone tiers I shouldn't go in yet because I don't have the skills high enough. There are tier zones that are all green for me too. So it's pretty much the same thing.
     
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  10. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I do wonder sometimes how much of the design was hamstrung by the monthly release model. It seems to have created a side effect of fodcusing on individual parts of the game, rather than the game as a whole thing. Bits get stuck in where needed, to solve a particular problem, but often don't feel like part of the whole.
     
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  11. Astirian

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    I dunno, games are about smoke and mirrors and I'm feeling SotA's design principle here tries its best at walking the line. To me it's the difference between having a big old fantasy D&D world to explore and go on random adventures in vs. a theme park treadmill. Even with tiers labelled and the creature lvl color changing I think they've done that part tastefully. Maybe it's a playstyle thing?

    I still believe wholeheartedly in an even progression curve, as is being discussed, but the player should never feel the technicality of it, it should be organic imho.

    I was going to save some of this for a separate post but some of it is kind of fitting as an example here. A couple of days ago, I decided it was time to get my younger brother into the game. While I waited for him to get started, I was invited by Handsome Jack (and a big thank you by the way!) to go mining based on a discussion that started about taming! I met him at Ordinis Mortis, we did an Elysium Mines run, which I had never been to. We had a round at Graff Gem Mines and it was great! Then he showed me a forest he likes to use for tree choppin'.

    So, he's logged off, I'm there discovering this forest which was new to me while I wait, having a real blast, my bro gets sorted and I meet him at the Outskirts, I take him to Port Graff (the "long" way) where I live, on the way we do an Overworld encounter and I show him resource gathering and an aether dragon spawn, we run away, I go into the crafting system with him (which he really seems to love by the way!)...

    It was organic and fun! There was this UO quality to it. He lost his mind when I played him a Monkey Island song on my lute!

    We had a go at the Braemar dungeon (and got caned at round 3 haha!) and that was the play session. Totally freeform. He loved it!

    Anyway. I played Star Wars: The Old Republic with him a couple of years ago and it didn't last. Even with the voice acting, we felt like we were just grinding consecutive zones. And we're proper Star Wars junkies. (The reason why he also lost his mind when I summoned "Fartoo" - Magic Trashcan!)

    Anyway, I digress! (I've asked him to give me valuable newbie feedback so I'll still do a post on that hopefully)
     
  12. Vladamir Begemot

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    In WoW, you would go do JUST the graveyard for level 10 - 12, then JUST the mine for 12 - 14, the JUST the bandit village for 14 - 16, etc. It is very very specific. And while
     
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  13. Vladamir Begemot

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    Yeah, I would never campaign for a theme park. I don't need that experience ever again. I really love that you can just walk off the story path and never go back if that is your desire.

    But from those who are trying to do the story, the reviews are usually not kind. There are many reasons, but when I see a big hole that can be plugged easily I point it out, over and over.

    I don't mention the NPC character developement often or in a way that I take seriously because I know that is a much bigger fix. But a "teleport to zone" is a pretty small tweak that could keep people in an appropriate time zone for a small development effort.
     
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  14. Aetrion

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    The big irony with this game is, it's all the crazy rainbow dyes and pop culture reference items that destroy my immersion, how much mechanical information a tooltip contains or how much the game tells me about where to go next doesn't affect me at all.
     
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  15. Astirian

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    Yeah, my main reason for backing this was Single-Player Ultima Feels but I'm supportive of their hybrid approach. I can never really comment on the quest progression because I'm still waiting for the overhaul and I'm not gonna do it in Online. I want to enjoy the storyline alone on my own time (like a Baldur's Gate playthrough for example) and then be able to have adhoc online adventures and do crazy **** like own a furniture shop as the low energy gaming thing or the social gaming thing. I just love having this world I can kind of check into. :) (Even more so when I get around to dungeon making and treasure hunting come Ep. II!)

    And I agree with the teleport option, it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to explain in-lore. "Come Avatar! I can get you to Chicago, meet me at X and I'll have organised a scroll for you." (that she 'casts')

    To be fair that was their plan from the outset as far as I understand it, deliver the multi-player platform and build the single-player from that. Heck of a task when you consider balancing both, especially when it comes to narrative and difficulty curves, but also one that's incredibly interesting to be a part of. Even if sometimes their priorities might seem weird to the great unwashed, I have to say though, I always get a great vibe from the monthly streams and the whole "when you see the trees with the leaves swaying in the wind, you did that!" stuff.
     
  16. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    I agree with you @Vladamir Begemot; that linear progression of the beginning story line could be vastly improved to assist new players with their initial questing experience. Starting everyone at Love and then having Arabella give the player an option to choose the next path (Courage or Truth) would go a long way to improving the NUE. We kind of already have this with the game starting on the Love path, but after that players are still on their own to figure out, "What next!?". This can be extremely discouraging to a new player.

    However, I can selfishly admit that my own "needs" or "wants" mirror those of @Bowen Bloodgood, @Astirian and many others. Fix and overhaul the story/quest system! While I like the multiplayer aspects of Shroud, it was really the quest driven, story rich, next iteration of Ultima game that got me involved with this project. Although I do not regret my decision, I will not hide my disappointment on how things have currently turned out. The story and quests are lackluster at best and while there are a few that are quite good, overall they make one shrug and say, "Meh.". I fully recognize that without instancing, it is impossible to have any true causality relating to future NPC behavior after completing (or failing) a quest. Bowen does a good job of outlining such an example in his post above. So what can be done?

    Admittedly, I am not a game designer/developer but I have to believe their is a way to overhaul the current system (as they told us they were doing months ago) that makes questing and the story more compelling! A system where your decisions have consequences that effect the world and environment around you. I have completed the entire game multiple times and still cannot tell you exactly WTF happened. It's a hot mess and not a good hot mess like the girl/guy you met at the bar on Saturday night. Sadly, I don't think they care anymore about this aspect of the game and new player retention suffers because of it. Every decision being made for development seems to be on new pixels and sandbox elements. I know people love this, but people also love a good Ultima story!

    I could be wrong and as my wife points out, I often am, but it feels like this "overhaul" will never happen. This in turn makes me wonder, will an Episode 2 ever happen? We haven't seen any new content relating to Episode 2, outside of a map, so what's happening there? The sad reality, limited resources and the oft blamed lack of "bandwidth"; I get it. Given Portalarium's current size and structure it makes sense to continue developing pixels and sandbox aspects of the game.

    So like others, I wait with diminishing hope that maybe things will change. That Episode 1 will get a very much needed overhaul; which in turn will lead to a better and more successful Episode 2!
     
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  17. Dartan Obscuro

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    I've suggested it a couple times on the forum but I'll toss it in here again. Arabella should send the player mail alerting them to quests. They could do this to announce new quests added to the game as well as to help the player progress through the story. She could send a teleport scroll with a note like "I've heard distressing news from X. Please investigate at your earliest convenience."
     
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  18. Bowen Bloodgood

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    At one point way back when.. there was a particular overhaul of a particular system that needed to happen. I gave it some thought and made a post about approximately how I thought it could be done. Silence... then 6 months later Chris announced he was working on that overhaul for "about 5 or 6 months).. and while I freely admit he gave it a LOT more thought than I did (it'd be 6 months after all) and of course it's perfectly possible he had the same initial ideas.. but it looked very much like what I was trying to describe and it did eventually happen.

    2 points I mean to make here is 1: They really do listen.. and 2: many times something will be in the works for a very long time that they're just not ready to tell us about.

    Now I'm not holding my breath on anything.. but I'm not ready to give up either. :)
     
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  19. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Mail is good.. a courier might be good to. :) Rather than have her pop up in person.. a random NPC runs up to you with letter in hand. That'd be interesting.. (I think).
     
  20. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Was there ever a plan for this? I don't mean that in a snarky way; I've only been here a year and a half, and so I've missed much development talk up to that point. Given how often RG mentions that "choices have consequences" when they clearly don't makes me wonder if there ever was a plan, or if their initial ideas about how to make it work didn't pan out, or if they think they've succeeded when they haven't, or... I don't know. I don't think they were lying, but I'd like to know what their early ideas were, and why/how they changed.
     
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