The Glass is Half Empty - A look inside why people are opposed to Open PvP and Full Loot

Discussion in 'PvP' started by antalicus, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Umbrae

    Umbrae Avatar

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    I am not bitter or angry, and I apologize if you feel that way. I am just tired of circular arguments and infighting about non-issues.

    What I am saying is you DO HAVE OPO PVP, so what are you fighting for? There will be an option for you, and they have said users will be able to flag for full-time PVP. If you think this is not a feature or that people are trying to take it away from you then you are referring to the misinformation I mentioned in my post. Be happy because your wish has been fullfilled: we just don't have the specifics from the developers on exactly how this work or be implemented.

    If you are not fighting to FORCE non-PVP players into PVP then my statements are not directed to you. Selective Multiplayer is meant to shuffle people together that want the same thing, so as long as there are other people who want the same environment you will be fine: No one is denying you your playstyle.
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  2. Baene Thorrstad

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    Gimmie, he is not trying to eliminate the OPO - PvP option. He is in agreement with you as far as I understand what you want. You want to have OPO - PvP, and you want others to be able to have OPO - PvE. I agree with that as well, as do most of the people herein this discussion.

    There have been some, however, who have made statements that made it sound like they want this game to be ONLY OPO - PvP, and anyone who doesn't want that should go play FarmVille or some such.

    On the other side of the fence, there have also been some who have attacked OPO -PvP as, shall I say, unethical? Both sides need to take a chill pill as far as I'm concerned, as the middle ground is already where the devs have said they want the game to be, and that makes me perfectly happy, as I want both, because I enjoy both.

    So, please step back a moment, I don't think what you guys think is going on, is going on. It sounds like you both want the same thing (Gimmie and Umbrae). Or I've completely misread everything everyone has been saying in this thread...
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  3. Phredicon

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    Thank you Umbrae for putting it succinctly
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  4. Phredicon

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    There is only one game world in which we will all live, play and die. The intention of the devs is ONE world, no sharding. Selective Multiplayer will be the method of segregation.
  5. Coren

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    It doesn't indeed. I doubt Portalarium will want to invest the resources required to develop and maintain a separate server only a minuscule fraction of players will ever want to play on, but if they do more power to you.

    On the other hand, what keeps this thread alive isn't people like you who want a version/shard/server with a different ruleset where you can play with other like-minded players, but those who advocate that everyone should play that way because otherwise it's not fair to them.
  6. CaptainJackSparrow

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    I think I can answer that now, which was something I didn't catch before. Ok this is how it goes. Right now there are crafter RP types sitting on the fence, maybe they wanna try PvP, maybe they do want to PvP but the problem is they do not want to take risks nor lose their valuable crafter RP type stuffs to us rabid maniacs foaming at the mouth to get their robes and chairs and stuff.

    So without the color, basically they want to PvP but in a perfectly safe sterile environment, so by going into OPO and having PvP it is "forcing" them into PvP(which is full loot) they don't want. This is also a very large issue for PvP players, as when we go into PvP we really want full loot, hard core rules for hard core gamers should apply when we go for it.

    Two types of PvP players mixed into both the Crafter/RP group and the Rabid/PK group, and this is where the sweet spot will be for the devs to program for. I do NOT envy them, it seems no matter what they end up doing, it is going to cause issues :(
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  7. Phredicon

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    TRUTH!
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  8. Asguard

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    Sorry to hear that because it sounds like your desires are in conflict with what RG wants out of this game. If you want to tempt non PvPers into PvP then you have to ensure that at least parts of it are not to penilising for people to dip in there toe. That doesnt mean a "demo mode" PvP. Also I think you will find your in the minority of even PvP players (certainly total players). I don't know if your going to get what you want, I think if you do then its not going to be the Nivana you think it is but thats not up to me, I really don't care. As I have said 3 times now, when it comes to playing I will make a decision as to what gives me the most enjoyment. Do I play Hardcore at times? yep, had a character in Diablo 3 up to level 30 before he died because I over streched myself. Did it bug me? yep for about 20 seconds but not enough to even rage quit the game. Haven't played hardcore since but thats because I haven't been on rather than because I lost the character.

    Am I going to put months or years worth of work up at risk to play PvP? Hell no. I guess I would be willing to risk between a day and maybe up to a weeks worth of work. So the question is how much RG is in favor of enticing people into PvP vs how many as a percentage turly want hardcore and thats as percentage of ALL customers, not just us. Chances of that being very high is very low
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  9. GimmeUOPlz

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    One more post before I go I guess. I definitely can see that this game isn't split into "shards" like UO, so its very new and I don't quite understand how alot of it will work. I kind of wish it was split into shards tho as I think it would fit very elegantly into different rulesets based on lore not just game limitations.


    Either way, games going to be great. I hope they find a way to do it and include open world PvP somehow, but honestly without it somehow being seperate from the characters and vendors that play the PvE version I don't see a point to including it. We learned from Trammel that if a playerbase in a single game world is given the choice between playing the game with or without risk, they will chose to play without risk because its the easy road. The depth that the advocates of open world PvP want is lost if it is an on/off switch, or atleast it is for me. I think the only way for it to have any meaning is to somehow seperate them. I too don't envy the Developers that have to deal with fitting this all together lol. The 3 month video is incredibly impressive tho for what it is, and its hard not to be optimistic.
  10. Myrcello

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    Grandpa talks to nephew :
    It was a time of two powers in there struggle for influence in a ongoing psychological warfare. Cycles of relative calm would be followed by high tension. The conflict was expressed threw massive propaganda campaigns, exspionage and .....

    Nephew interrupts:
    Wow...did not know you already had PvP vs PvE back then!


    Grandpa :
    I was actually talking about the cold war..
  11. CaptainJackSparrow

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    You can define a day or two weeks worth of work in a number of different ways. Since PvP is something you can basically "switch on and off" as proposed currently, then you know exactly when you will encounter PvP. That to me is the massive step forward that helps everyone understand when they will be in danger. Want to go PvP? Don't carry all your stuff with you to the point you are so overloaded you can't carry any more. Dont take your best weapons and armor it took you 8 months to craft(as if but you know for the sake of saying).

    Because you can turn it on and then go in, I believe it is a huge indication and assistance step to show you typically non-hardcore PvP RPers they care about you too and they dont want you to get ganked. That is along the lines of what RG has said in his videos.

    Now that being said, once you turn it on, you expect to have PvP and you make the right decisions about what to take with you on your journey... Why can't it be a little rough? Its PvP, it has to be rough! :)
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  12. vjek

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    The discussions go from cordial to heated whenever full loot is drawn into it for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons are:
    • Losing everything isn't fun, especially if the game requires time & resources to re-equip, and equipment is expensive.
    • Very few, if any, games have removed the victor from the target at death, in PvP, leading to all sorts of social problems.
    • Very few persistent multiplayer online games make direct PvP meaningful, in the "you are changing the game world" sense.
    Full loot is both a social and economic driver. It can be an attractor, but also a long term problem, depending on a few factors. Full Loot, by itself, is unrelated to PvP exlusively. It would be possible to have full loot in PvE. Is it a good idea? It depends on a variety of other in game mechanics. As noted below, often these choices are agonizing for developers, having to choose between their ideals and their "message". In other words, very often, what you and they want is not the highest priority, compared to what is best for the game in the long term.
    Raph Koster posted a great article yesterday, in which he stated the following:
    "
    You often have to choose between your ideals and your message.
    One of the commonest pieces of feedback I get is that I am choosing some philosophical ideal over the player’s experience. It might be getting wedded to an aesthetic or visual I love that is just confusing the issue. It might be sticking with PvP for too long in order to serve an ideal of virtual citizenship, not paying attention to how many players are being chased out of the game.
    The irony here, of course, is that if I can’t make the player’s experience positive enough, my ideal is failing to reach them anyway. And what good is it then?
    It doesn’t mean I have to give up on the philosophical ideal. But it does mean that there are many many ways to compromise, and not all of them leave you compromised. In fact, being uncompromising may be the least successful way to achieve your artistic goal.
    "

    Now, if you don't know who Raph is, he was involved with UO, as a developer. He saw the good, the bad, and the ugly. He knows what's up with game design. It might be worth considering his words. And yes, I'm aware PvP in SotA will be consensual. That doesn't change the value of the message. If a customer comes to SotA expecting PvP to be challenging fun, and it's not, for them, they'll leave. That's the worst possible outcome for everyone, both the community and Portalarium.

    IF we knew Portalariums current design goals with respect to Full Loot, Meaningful Player Conflict, and Death, most of this swirling churn of pain would cease to exist. We don't know yet. Logic and reason can, however, be used to assess hypothetical mechanics, to see how well they might work, especially comparing them to what has or has not worked well in the past.
  13. MagiK

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    GimmeUOplz I think your definition of "Griefing" is selectively altered to suit YOUR opinion. In this case Im of a mind that GRIEF is in the mind of the one suffering the grief. Yes I realize people have been defining things to suit their needs here, so to even the playing field, lets use the REAL meaning of the words, rather than MMO shorthand.

    Since there is only one game, the option to participate or not in PvP is a perfect solution for everyone but those who are intent on causing others grief by forcing their will on them. The real problem seems to be those that want unrestricted PvP are afraid there wont be many targets...or many squishy targets for them to gank. And I have to ask...is this really all about not wanting to do the work and spend the time to collect resources for yourself, but instead to gain all that in an instant by jumping someone who DID put in the time and effort?
  14. CaptainJackSparrow

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    This is the nature of a discussion. You cannot say that he is altering the english language to suit him, it is his opinion and of course you have your opinion. You know what they say about opinions right...

    MagiK, if you had gone over and read the MMORPG thread(or any of my comments earlier) which you single handedly started by what you posted here, then you would know what the real issue is.

    Let me just say again, the real issue is that in depth PvP players are of a bit more of a hard core PvP mindset than most RP/Crafters which is easy to understand and we are unhappy about how some of the RP/Crafters are having possibly too much influence over the type of game we want to play. You do this because, as Asguard says, you may also want to do a little low key fun type PvP. Which is totally fine, and I think that type of PvP can so easily be catered for by in game mechanics like arenas and guild spars and what not.

    One cannot say that this fear that we will see PvP which is only suited for sterile padded environment players instead of full loot is not justified. You Crafter RP types are always saying how we PvP/PK types are in the minority. Well yeah, you are right we are.

    That is the real issue. It isn't about teaming up with 10 guys and ROFLSMASHGANKING your 10yr old son as he warms up his first weapon to kill a bird to craft some feathers to make an arrow to sell to --- You get the point.
  15. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Well it was just that I was asking him specific things. No hard feelings.
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  16. Deus_Irae

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    I'll chime in here with my 2 cents. I played UO for the better part of a decade and experienced my fair share of being killed and killing others on my characters. I was never very good at pvping, but I could hold my own in most fights. I ended up getting my pvp urges sated by the RPVP community on my shard that would frequently engage in "wars" against each other, looting anything other than bandages was not permitted however.

    That being said, I also recently played on a freeshard that had the old ruleset of Renaissance, and wow there were a lot of pks! Haha, I will admit that it was frustrating all of a sudden being in a position once again where one could lose all your gear and hard earned cash in a matter of seconds, but after swallowing the bitter pill, I also felt a thrill that I haven't felt playing games since the early days of UO. A true sense of risk vs reward when venturing out of the cities.

    To be honest, I sympathize with the people that do not want to play in such an environment, and I can see how it can be fun as well! Hell, some of my fondest memories of UO was when I was playing a dedicated crafter hanging out by the forge in Britain with all the other smiths. But as always, I can also sympathize with the people that want to recreate the feeling of risk vs reward, which isnt anywhere to be found in any online games these days besides Eve.

    Sadly, there will never be a solution to this debate I fear, as well... the two sides simply do NOT play nice with each other. The wolves want to play with the sheep, and the sheep would prefer staying way clear of wolves. As to how it will work in SotA it will be interesting to see if and how they will reconcile these two groups.

    As to my personal view, I think I find myself somewhere in the middle of both sides. I do want pvp, and full loot, but I also then want extreme consequences of playing as a murderer so it does not become a pandemic problem and it really ends up being just a few people that partake in such activities.

    But we'll see soon I suppose!

    Thanks for reading!
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  17. MagiK

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    A. I didnt feel it was necessary for me to read the entire forum before I began posting. While I was a VERY early backer, I didnt have the time to Jump into the forums when they first started up. Im sorry if you feel I was unfairly characterizing your posts, but I tend to take people at face value and they are saying what they mean...ALWAYS not just in some posts and not others.....but I am not trying to start a fight here so please contiue to pints B and C.

    B. I conceeed the fact that if you do not have a well crafted economic model, then Crafters, or Farmers or Industrialists can gain undue influnce over the game environment. This is better addressed by having a quality economic model than forcibly making people participate in PvP. Crafters should not have danger free environments to gather resources in...this is where mobs and random encounters come into play.

    C. I am in agreement with you on your issue that IF people are in PvP, then it seems reasonable to me, that if one should die in that environment then one should lose anything one was carrying on them that the victor decides to take. It DOES NOT make sense to say "Oh hey I killed that guy, but I can only take 10% of what he has on him."
    though some items may be damaged or destroyed in the battle...which is a whole different thing.

    Edit: full disclosure, I never ever played UO. Mainly because I was never interested in MMO's
    So I am not drawing on the UO experience for my views. (I have since played a few MMO's and am now familiar with the mechanics for the most part).
  18. MagiK

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    Deal, I think we got off on the wrong foot and Im not looking to make enemies in SotA Im looking at people who actually have a LOT in common with me, despite any differences in the minro or not so minor details.
  19. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Awesome. So you see, we seem to be in agreement for the most part and this was probably just a big misunderstanding. Do I get a nobel peace prize in forum dipomacy yet? :)

    MMORPG readers, thanks for coming and trolling us, now you can take this back to MMORPG: Even the Crafter RP types are not trying to unduely influence what happens in PvP to a huge extent. Not only that, but some of them understand and think since you make the choice to enter into PvP, then yeah it should be a bit hard core because you can change your play to suit it and leave at probably any time.
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  20. MagiK

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    Yep I agree with Captainjack on this one.

    We should get the Nobel Peace Prize for this :D Some people get it for doing a lot less ;)
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