The Glass is Half Empty - A look inside why people are opposed to Open PvP and Full Loot

Except with the slider, everyone is a wolf in PvP and there are no sheep to run away. So there is no need to put muzzles on our snouts, just sign up for PvP with the slider and lets see who is going to be ALPHA DOG!

 

Bring in law enforcement to slow them down and problem is solved.
They will be earning their living like the rest of us.

 

So... the wolves all kill each other until there's no wolves, and that's a happier ending?
The same logic applies, hence my use of victim and hunters in the consequences.
(you'll note the above post was about Full Loot, and it's economic impact, Jack)

 

Please elaborate on what you mean by this, jondavis?
What does law enforcement have to do with the economic impact of full loot?

 

What? This is not some sort of perma death if you die you are banned game or something. If I get killed, I'm not gonna rage quit nor would a lot of other PvP/PKs. Not only that, but people can go in and out of PvP at will when they do have the time and can adjust their game play to suit it.

There is no need for great loss when you PvP, you just change the way you play. Play smart.

 

The time it takes one to get the resources vs the time to loot them.
If you can slow down the looting by those players losing their items and other penelties then it will even things out.

 

You're advocating slowing down pvp full looting? How would you do that?

 

Economic impact, Jack.
The "no need for great loss" isn't your choice. You lose everything, every time you die.
The more you play, the more you hunt, or the more you die, as hunter or victim, the worse the problem becomes.

 

Law enforcement
Bounties
Punishment for crimes
Forcing criminals into the wild

 

How would these slow down pvp full looting?
Please elaborate on the economic impact, not the social/justice mechanics.

The economic impact does not rely on, nor it is affected in the slightest by, anything you've mentioned above.

 

If soneone is getting killed by the law then he is not out looting right?
If someone is in prison or escaping out of a dungeon then he is not out looting right?
If someone has to sneak around to avoid the law to find a kill then how much time did he lose in looting?
Do you get it?

 

I was talking about this a few hours ago. Let me step you through it before I hit bed time tonight.

1. I'm out in the woods, bird watching with the new Dev+ item Spyglass of the Avatar.
2. I collect a lot of rare plant seeds for ultra cool growing stuff.
3. I price the seeds at $Obscene.
4. I am SUPER bored right now, you have no idea.
5. I know, let me PvP!
6. Oh wait, I have max expensive plant stuffs in my pack, I've also got a bit of gold, some vintage 600 Britannian Ale, and damn... My trusty Axe of Slashing(cos its a blade Weapon, Bowen, I'm lookin at u bro) +9935.
7. I can't PvP cos I has all this and I don'ts wanna lose it!
8. Oh wait, I can PvP. I'm just going to walk to town, and toss all this junk into my bank box! Or my house storage!
9. Done, it is all safe! Now, let me get out some average stuff to play with that doesn't cost so much, like these crafted plate mail sets from Mr Smithy the Smithing Smith.
10. Cool, now where is that slider bar thing, ok, slide -------------------+ bing, PvP time baby.
11. Now at this point I head out of town and become Alpha Dog.

What up with that! See what I did there by playing smart? Also, by using non-PvE super magical lewt, I am supporting the player eco in fact, not hurting it. Smithy the Smithing Smith will love me for buying all his plate!

Problem solved, nobel prize number 2: WON.

Night kids.

 

There's no law enforcement in the wilderness. The law is not involved in the slightest. Why would they be?
I don't understand where escaping from a dungeon came from. Why would the hunter be in the dungeon?
Bounties? Two accounts nullifies all bounty systems not involving an NPC.
Sneak around? There's no sneaking. They're out in the wilderness, killing.

As a reminder, my argument was based on this:
"
A simple example, with some math.
In a given unit of time, of whatever value, let's say you can obtain x resources by not killing players.
In a smaller unit of time, of whatever value, let's say you can obtain x*n resources by killing players, where n is greater than 1.
"
When that is true, we've already seen the consequences in other games. It's not hypothetical. It's already been demonstrated to fail.

In the interest of efficiency, if you want to discuss this further, jondavis, please PM me. As we've gone full circle once, I suspect the rest of the thread participants are no longer interested in watching another round.

 

If you're talking about a game where you have to grind a dungeon for 20+ hours to get one piece of armor which increases a single stat marginally, but for whatever reason is VERY valuable and worth the time (somehow), then yes, a full loot system wouldn't work. A sandbox game on the other hand, where you harvest your materials, and there is a never ending line of crafters who would love to make your gear, there is absolutely no reason full loot shouldn't be in the game. If you are an inexperienced or unintelligent player, you might put all of your eggs in one basket, and not save for a rainy day. When that wolf tears your throat out and you lose ALL of your gear, it will make you sad no doubt. However, if you plan ahead, you have a half dozen gear bags premade in your bank and you simply reequip within minutes and go about your day. Next time you see your crafting friend you pay him some gold or some materials and he helps you replace the bag you used up.

It really isn't hard nor time consuming. Surviving in a world where there is danger actually stimulates the economy because you have to cooperate with other players. Of course if you are THAT opposed to it, there is the option of playing offline, or only being visible to your friends. Nothing says you have to interact with the playerbase at large, but the world will be less diverse and you will have a clearly diminished experience in my opinion.

 

Step 9 is all that's required for the economic impact issue to continue.
When you die, you lose everything, which is the entire source of the problem.

 

@vjek

There's no law enforcement in the wilderness. - hire some players and there will be
The law is not involved in the slightest. Why would they be? - because they are a criminal and if someone kills them then money comes out of the criminals pocket - again he loses time and money
I don't understand where escaping from a dungeon came from. Why would the hunter be in the dungeon? - he is a criminal and was caught and the punishment was to throw him into a dungeon
Bounties? Two accounts nullifies all bounty systems not involving an NPC. - If the criminal pays the bounty then thats only money out of his pocket
Sneak around? There's no sneaking. They're out in the wilderness, killing. - Not with bounty hunters out trying to kill them

 

A major aspect that has been consistently ignored, yet is at the heart of gameplay, is that of adrenaline and how much a player desires. Some players want to feel charged up, other don't. Certainly folks exist along a bell curve, but were you to ask each side of that curve to list their favorite games, I wager you'd see little overlap. The ones that do probably offer several types of play.

It's not just the PvP or PvE that is dividing people, it is the level of adrenaline. For me, being killed and losing things is an annoyance, but not something that would make me quit. The continual feeling of danger, coiled and ready to twitch, the ever present anxiety, these would make me quit. I just don't enjoy games that won't let me relax.

To each his own. We turn to games for various reasons. A reasoned debate must recognize those underlying reasons.

I game for intellectual challenge. I game to unwind. I will play SotA for the community, for story, both RG's and my own. I want serious roleplay with its politics, diplomacy, pettiness, and social challenges. Random PvP is at best an interruption to the rest.

To the others here, I'd ask the same. Why do games satisfy you?

 

I personally don't want the game to tell me what to do the whole damn time. If somebody tricks me or kills me, and I lose all my stuff, I DO NOT want there to be some game mechanic that makes everything ok. I want to be ok because I had the foresight to plan ahead. If I have a problem with a certain group of players, guess what, I have my own friends who will take up the sword for me. The worst case scenario is I have to pay somebody. Either way, the players are creating the narrative of New Britannia, not the game. Make friends, join a guild, support your local blacksmith and don't run out into the wild alone and expect every journey to be uneventful.

 

I agree....that is what made ultima online so special and still the champion of ALL games. The reality inside a game. The danger, the thrill, the revenge, the savior, the madness, the happiness all can go down in an instance.....now I do believe there should be "no drop" items from highly skilled crafter or dungeons. But not every item

 

I will express the point in non-metaphorical language, then. Going round and round about PvP without any new input from the devs seems to generate many arguments. Most of the discussion is likely to be undermined anyway when the design is presented in more detail. The only thing left is the entertainment value of debate, and if it's for entertainment then my post is right on point.