The Grind

I want to advance by following the story and quests and not by doing the same things over and over again. Therefore I hope that SotA will offer a fluid way to advance just by following quests and the story.

 

I don't have the time.

Actually, I don't really enjoy tournaments, I like open world pvp. Fair question though.

 

Captain Jack is at a loss to understand. You have already sent your PvP ideas to portalarium and they haven ot responded? Or you are waiting for them to ask you what it is?

 

Yes I did... at first they said they would let me have a chat with the AI guy, because most of my ideas need both server side AI and affect NPC AI as well, it would be the quicker way to get me understood since the model I relay is from Xorinite which is a living AI.

I know this seems vaporous and somewhat unreal, but I assure you its all very intelligible and practical.

I think its a problem of pride (my rude attitude when faced with rejection, and the devs being unwilling to just listen and judge the idea for themselves) but I'm not into speculation and judging people. Perhaps they think they don't need to radically change the model for this game, maybe they think it would be more appropriate to wait for a few episodes to see what people really want, maybe they think it would suit better another future portalarium title. I'm certainly not at war with anyone here... I've contributed my share of feedback many which has already been added to this game that I hope will flourish for many years to come.

I have received personal replies from the devs but also maybe they are way too busy in the ramp up to alpha.

The model I propose would ease all forms of tensions from economic to philosophic to roleplay, not just pvp. It would also make people like the Baron feel much more important and well treated right on day 1 of release, along with giving a true purpose to powergamers. It sounds paradoxal but I beg to differ, it was all clearly explained to me and the more I learn by participating in the developpement of this game, the clearer it becomes. In fact when I think about it and conceptualise its application in my mind I get almost drunk to the grandeur it implicates. I am more and more amazed that this was just downloaded in my brain through dreams back in 1999 when those ideas couldn't even be used, now with cloud computing and unity and portalarium it all becomes possible.

I think maybe its because I was distasteful a few times in my arguments, and now its become a question of pride. Although I agree that portalarium dosen't need me, I am the product of their hard work back in the day.

The experiences I had in ultima were completely out of this world, as a seer and programmer for EA I was able to see things no other person in the dev team could see because it was right at the apex of the evolution of the game, and since it was changing hands because of the ebay gold selling scandal. The devs missed it, and there was no way I would deliver those informations to EA which then re-hired me to become a companion and bug decypherer. Yes I did take things personally, yes I'm very grudgeful... noone is perfect huh

The thing is, there is noone else that pretends anything close to what I've experienced. I've not only weaved all Ultimas in my imagination and psyche : I was lucky to get the lucid dreams and astral travels that come with it and King Gariott himself confirmed to me that it wasn't a dream. He clearly intended this to be more than "just a game"... and he was glad to learn I remained loyal to him and the virtues all this time.

However there seems to be a difference of opinions between the devs, and although King Gariott might relate to my experiences because he probably created the games cause them ; it would be hard to "prove" I'm not just begging for attention or some other form of recognition/entitlement.

I hope that clarifies any confusion I might cause with my mysticism.

I'm just a lucky guy that could get the full experience because I was at the right place and the right time with the right brain and the right mind-opening experiences. I do not consider myself "special" nor do I think I'm indispensable, and I'm certainly not just begging for attention. I'm not a genius nor a virtuoso... I think that without Origin I would never have lived those experiences, I actually feel indebted to many in the dev team.

When I came back from the xorinite dimention I had a clear mission to accomplish and that was to deliver this "package" to a competent dev team and preferably one composed of people who honor the Xorinite and also makes room for their consciousness. You don't find a dev team like that every corner and its a very big compliment that I'm doing to Portalarium by going public and opening myself to critics like this. They were very clear that I needed to be a public figure and that it was the only way to apply the idea without me being in any position of power (because of my huge ambition and parabolic personality problems).

Thanks for caring Captn. I really appreciate and will remember this honor. I think my main issue is that the only reply I've gotten is "yeah right" as if noone in the dev team expected any "illuminated" person barging in these forums, as if King Gariott wasn't a true genius and created more than a game.

Noone will even sit down with me and listen... I'm just being dismissed as another crazy fanboi ; maybe I am, but I'm not important, the idea is ; and thats what I'm not being allowed to prove.

 

I used to get to level 20 easy by doing the Hidden Vale quests. Then I'd grind for like 5 levels and quit because grinding is tedious and boring. After the change to a use based system this changed. I only got gold from doing quests. I'm level 18 now and while I have the time to level to 100, I don't see why I would punish myself to do that. I definably won't grind to level 40. And so many casual players will be turned off by the grind.
Drocis is one hundred percent right about this issue even if I don't care about PvP.

 

Ahuaeynjgkxs, I would like to share two things with you.

1. Because I can not pronounce your name, I silently pretend it says "Applejacks". This helps me tremendously on the forums.
2. I do hope you plan to be a Chaos Mage. I believe you were born to play this role, and I'm seriously looking forward to seeing you in game. I hope you decide to live somewhere in Rats Nest.

 

Basically agree that advancing most skills/levels is currently a huge, tedious grind; based on my admittedly limited experience (currently lvl 61 with one GM in ranged combat, mostly focusing on crafting though) serious leveling is only possible if
a) one happens to have a computer job or is otherwise able to work in constant close promixity to a computer, using little grinding sessions (mining is especially suitable for this) as a way of taking breaks from what one is actually doing; or
b) one is not from Earth; or
c) one is not human; or
d) all of the above.
Ok I'm joking. Half-*. Sort of. Somehow reading through this thread reminds me of this little comics gem:

Spoiler: The link might contain some not-so-appropriate language

What it's like to play online games as a grownup

While the average SotA audience might be a lot more mature (at least in some ways) than what was depicted, I remain in a kind of perma-baffled state concerning many of the responses Baron Drocis tends to receive from the PvP folks - reading comprehension seems to only get in the way of "winning an argument" by any means possible, a mindset sadly analogous to "grinding one's way to PvP glory". It does not make it exactly tempting to get one's feet wet with any level of PvP experience.

I think the "leveling grind" issue is very closely related to the "DPS grind" systems in combat. So I just mention as an aside that in some rp systems, the risk of sudden death is always there, for example in the form of true criticals, not the watered down "DPS boost 'criticals'" but ones resulting in a possibility of instant death, at any time, with any lucky (or unlucky) shot. Just saying.

One good thing though; with the grind-prescribed level of predictability, PvP combat certainly won't be illegal in any state.

 

I started this game on Tuesday. I am currently level 39 with no 4x buff experience. It is extremely easy to level if you have the available resources and knowledge of where to go. Thankfully my guild has been super helpful in this. Theres no reason to dumb down the skill gains.

 

I think Drocis has some good points. People with a lot of time to grind want time spent to give them an advantage in PVP. However, the way leveling works in SotA, grinding gives diminishing returns over time. You might not be able to catch the diehard grinders, but you can get closer to them over time. I also like to play alone, so my hope is that after some time I will be strong enough to enter a PVP scene, gather some rare resources, and then make it to the exit without dying when the inevitable PVP squad jumps me.

That being said, I think it would be fun and beneficial to feedback if the devs were to put in some way(s) to PVP based on skill alone.

Here's an idea:

Add a "duel mode" arena type scene. You are loaded into the scene in the buff with all your abilities, experience, everything at zero. You start in a small room with standard sets of armor, weapons, reageants, etc. to equip. You are given a fixed number of points to spec whatever skills and abilities you want. After spec'ing and equipping, you leave the room through a one way door into the main arena to face your opponent. Your opponent has also done the same, so the outcome of the fight would be based only on skill and build strength.

@Chris, @DarkStarr, @RichardGarriott, Would a scene like this be feasible?

The initial setup room and the arena could be separate scenes so people could equip and then queue up for opponents in the arena.

And just for fun:
Snoopy VS the Red Baron (-:

 

@Wilfred, I think whether or not grinding is giving "diminishing returns over time" depends largely on one's definition of grinding. If one defines it as automated gustball whacking, sure. However, taking some inspiration from how @Zassik Dreadmort most excellently put it some weeks ago (the context in there was not exactly grinding but rather meaningful combat), I currently define grinding as "Repeatedly kill/harvest nondescript forgettable mobs/nodes that just don't matter to you, repeat ad infinitum, over and over ... did I already say repeat?"

Hello, I am helm, and I'm a grindaholic. I started grinding with low level ore nodes and small wolf spiders, now I've moved over to grinding with high level ore nodes and large red spiders. The basic mechanism of The Grind stays exactly the same, and there is no diminishing of returns in sight.

It is, however, deathly boring. Folks who say that "there is no need to [further] dumb down level / skill advancement" have it exactly backwards, as there is nothing more dumbed down in this game than grinding. I do it only because I want to test out (pre-alpha, remember) some higher order skills in archery and crafting, and I am able to do it only because I do it as a way to take small breaks from other things (=type "a" case as described in previous post). I would likely be very hard pressed to find motivation to do it that way in the actual released game though, so I hope that some other way for character advancement is going to exist by then.

Edit - a couple of typo fixes and elaborations

 

@helm, Here is what I meant by "diminishing returns over time".

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z-svq1OvcZwViqGxFCKdjH3NCn2LTfLuGny5qaAqjTM/pub#h.a17xkjg8rnkl
Player Guide
Character Progression
Each learned skill is ranked from level one to one hundred. As a skill increases in level it will begin to take steadily more time and experience to increase.

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/use-based-systems.35948/
Use Based systems
Most skills increase in effectiveness based on square root curve. So a 100 vs a 50 is not 100% more effective but rather 41% more effective.
The curve for experience is exponential so every 10 points more than doubles the exps needed. So going from 90 -100 is more effort than 1-90

 

Working as a team.... excellent approach and most satisfying, to some of us anyway...

 

Rofl I sure have a blast seeing the creativity people use to simplify my name which is in fact very simple, it pronounces like a sneezee all in one shot "Ahua-eynjgkxs" It's actually already abreviated for easing its intricacy

but Ahu is fine, and Applejack haha well that puts me against the tree of knowledge of good and evil as the serpant himself

To be completely honest I used to spend my time in Bucaneer's den, so your POT is likely going to attract my character (which is going amnesic for release in order to roleplay properly. Of course my ambitions as a chaos mage in UO led me to meet the xorinite, the evil guys who hacked and became rich selling virtual goods, the balrons and my own fate as I perished after having casted armageddon on the atlantic shard in 1999... not figuratively mind you. I actually did that, and the balrons unleashed a memorable massacre which many remember at the wee hours in the morning, which ended in the server crashing and not being able to restart for almost a whole day, including a funny time warp (they had to use a 2 days old backup because somehow I had also corrupted the past).

Again I'm not saying all the truth, but the truth nonetheless

These experiences thaught me about the corrupting power of money and magic, and I've had to deal with the alpha time lord in order to restitute my soul and emotional body which had been shattered like the shard. He threw me into a loop and I travelled time, back to the tower of mondain where I killed him and accidentally hit the gem (don't judge me his magic was very powerful and I was blind).

It's that simple in a way... but that was the trigger, and not the enlightenment that followed... which took time, and maturity and also humility and compassion as I refused to take part in the insane money making that was selling duped goods and gold for real cash.

In fact the link between money and anti-roleplaying was so strong that I had to sacrifice my account and posessions (I was one of the first thieves to collect server birth rares on both Pacific and Atlantic) and also having been a seer I had all manners of rare items, a unique character with unbuyable hair style and items... I estimate back in the day that if I was wise I could have pulled 15k$USD out of this whole mess, and maybe more if I sold my chaos mage's head, which is very ironic to say the least.

I let it all decay, I put all the items on the ground and guarded them until they were all gone, it was like burning cash that I desperately needed (I was poor and hungry and sick, still am), but it liberated my tears, warm tears of having seen the switch between passion and greed, the treason of seeing King British's own baby being stolen away from him for greed. This trigered another bout of astral travels and dreams which led me to understand the shadowy origins of my soul and why I was given all these experiences and tests of virtue on the way.

You see, I was the most powerful chaos mage, more powerful than Mondain... he perished at my hand, more powerful than Saruman because he reached to me for guidance, more powerful than Raistlin because he prayed to me in secret.

Yet faced with all this power, and all this easily made money... I prefered to melt into a puddle of tears, and feel at one with the humane reality, that we are concieved to care for other living things and not devolve into ego.

Since then my life is a true hell on earth, my health is failing like Raistlin's, my soul is failing like Saruman, my heart is sick like mondain.

As long as I don't lose patience you say ? as long as I persevere you say ? for in truth they are the hidden virtues... sorry for ruining so many "punches" but the pursuit of truth is more important than our entertainment, it is now more true than ever with the constant testing of the unity of our species by some very powerful time lords, denizens of the outer spheres and other malignant gremlins.

There is much I am aware of, yet my spirit is imbued in the virtues, yet Rat's nest seems the most friendly place to me at this time.

Now that is a conundrum... will my amnesiac character we welcomed by the virtuous in appearance, as they "play" nonchalantly with the oracle protection not realising the deep roots of the lore @Lum and @RichardGarriott have in store for us ; while getting annoyed at my quest for wisdom and truth. Or will he end up in rats nest learning chaos magic for another run of the mill, then dragooning my philosophy into the minds of the avatars ?

No pun intended here, only love and courage it is to bare my naked heart like this with the perseverance of the salmon and the patience of the mantis.

 

Yes, I do get that..but what you wrote (exact quote, emphasis mine) was that "grinding gives diminishing returns over time". It really does not, because there are always bigger mobs to grind, giving more xp to compensate for the square root curve. So the "LevelsAdvanced / RealLifeTimeInvested" value can be kept more or less the same (interpreted in strict nitpicking-technical fashion, it might slow down a little bit but that's beside the main point here).

 

And there are players that in three weeks time made it to level 70+. That was stated in the OP. Please let us know when you hit 70+, I'm told that is a slower ride.

The idea that we're "dumbing down" the game by making it easier to have a competitive pvp population is wrong. Unless of course you're advocating making it hard for the average person to get into pvp?

If the soft curve for levels started at 30 and not 100, I think you would have a better argument, because I'm level 42 now and would've been overly ready for PVP with anyone if that were the case. But unfortunately that's not the case and I can't find meaningful or competitive pvp anywhere. I had an opportunity to duel with someone level 80 last night, it wasn't even close. It had nothing to do with me "knowing what I was doing". My skills and HP just weren't high enough.

 

Here's a little table to help apply some critical thinking to the various "I advanced X levels in only Y weeks" stories.

The values in the tables are just relative ballpark figures, based on the sentence quoted from here:

"The curve for experience is exponential so every 10 points more than doubles the exps needed. So going from 90 -100 is more effort than 1-90". ​

I'm interpreting this to apply to both individual skills and levels (indicating the accumulated size of the entire xp pool). Despite not knowing the exact formula (I just used X^2), I still think these ballpark figures are useful when estimating the amount of grinding necessary. For example, a person reaching level 70 has grinded more than 7 times more xp than a person having just reached level 40, and a person reaching level 90 -- at least 33 times more.

I suspect that the "slower ride" phenomenon after lvl 70-ish is due to some kind of xp reward gap in the mobs available for grinding, and/or the need to team up (share xp) in order to take on various mini-bosses (the only creatures available at the other side of the said "xp reward gap").

Code:

   Level  Absolute    Cumulative
---------------------------------
00 -> 10     2           2
10 -> 20     4           6
20 -> 30     8          14
30 -> 40    16          30
40 -> 50    32          62
50 -> 60    64         126
60 -> 70   128         254
70 -> 80   256         510
80 -> 90   512        1022
90 ->100  1024        2046
100->110  2048        4094

 

The XP/Level progression, back when XP's were shown, was roughly 10% more per level, starting at 1000XP for level 1. I have values all the way to level 75, as I stopped at level 74-- 10,498,032 XP's was enough, as 1,050,983 more were needed to gain level 75. I still applaud Themo Lock for making it to level 100 back then-- needing roughly 125,000,000 XP's total to make it there. Anyway, current XP progression looks to be the same, as my calculated number of (large) red spiders to gain a level still matches my old spreadsheet, even though XP values are not shown.

 

So main problem is how people with lower level can PvP against people with higher and be enjoyable to all.

A simple 1v1 without any modifiers will not do.

My base thought is could a group of (low) players set-up a ambush in one hex and then when a suitable player/group of players goes pass they would be dragged into the scene.

Your group first choice a hex and do some command that tells they want to set-up a ambush.
They gets moved into a scene fitting the hex.
Once there they has the option to put up some traps and similar things.
the more skill/levels they have and the more traps they place out the higher the difficulty.
Once they is done they can

1. Do some confirm command and then the first player/group with reasonable skill/levels for the challenge gets dragged into the scene (surpriced ?)
2. Do another confirm command that Also make that hex show up a bit suspicious on the world map then interested PvP players may seek them out

Maybe the the first group can cause a small fortress / tower to spawn in the scene and use it for defence

 

There is always going to be some type of grind. If you get every skill out of the gate then the game becomes boring because most people will then not explore because there is no reward. so level allows for a time and reward system. in FPS they have a grind for weapons so they have a time and reward system. if something like that was implemented then the grind would only shift to weapons used in fights, and there would still need to have a grind for skills.

So my suggestion would be to first give more players choice on their starting tree of skills. This allows players to then jump right into what they want.
Remove levels for character and skills.
Give skill trees a vertical progress bar, with a horizontal line across it. The bar can act like exp bar gaining from kills and quests. This bar will only have one level, but as it progresses downwards it will unlock any skill to be learned that it passes. This will be the grind for reward.
In pvp any player can be able to win, the one with more skills may have a slightly better chance. Armor and such would also factor in but only a slight advantage.
In pve it would make more quests available as well as exploration. Each zone can become an interesting and fun place to fight in for resources rather then grinding away.

Just an idea, i don't mind the leveling to much since every rpg has it it is a deal with it sort of thing.

 

Explorers wouldn't care, they aren't too picky about levels and skills. Achievers would be pissed. Different segments of the player base.

I'll second BDF, from the PVE standpoint, the grinds in SOTA exceed the content. I derive no more satisfaction from killing the same bear 100 times as I do 10. Sure some segment of the player base are happy with the current Skinner box implementation, but they they are excessively vocal and do their best to drive the rest of us out of the forums and away from the game.