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The Grind

Discussion in 'Release 24 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Nov 19, 2015.

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  1. helm

    helm Avatar

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    That's an interesting idea, at the very least well worth discussing and perhaps trying out.
     
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  2. Sold and gone

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    thank you for reading it. :)
     
  3. Retro

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    I've suggested this before and I'm sure hardcore PVP'ers will absolutely detest the idea... (and I'm going to keep on suggesting it;))

    But the ONLY way were we are going to have significantly more PVP occurring in the game, especially at lower character levels and among more casual gamers, is to allow them (us) to set a range + or - range for opponent level that can engage them in PVP. If an opponent attempts to attack you and it's outside of your personally set engagement criteria, the combat attempt would fail and the player would be sent a standard PVP duel request.

    If it's within the engagement criteria, PVP combat would occur normally. The engagement criteria would of course be null and void within dedicated PVP areas and towns.

    Getting ganked by multiple players that are around the same level as me, fair game in my eyes. Getting ganked by even a single player that is 20, 30 or even 40 levels higher no thanks...Sadly I'll keep my PVP flag off, I don't want to but I also don't want to be a constant victim, I want competitive PVP that's appropriate to my power level.

    Bottom line, allow the player to set the amount they are willing to be "victimized" and players will turn on their PVP flag from day 1...I know I would.

    This is the most logical solution to the problem...

    Also @Chris please show some stats Character level vs. Time played stats from R23... I'd bet less then 10% of players made it past level 45.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
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  4. Themo Lock

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    The only time i spent 100% of my time grinding were the releases i went to 100. Most of my time is spent socializing.
     
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  5. Quenton

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    What the what? This blows my mind.

    Themo, where's your levelling guide?
     
  6. Themo Lock

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    It is outdated, i was going to make a new one soon (just needed to actually level again instead of yelling at Chris about skill decay).
     
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  7. Quenton

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    What? I was joking, I didn't realise you already have one. Where is it?

    Those of us wanting to avoid the grind want to take a look, even if it is outdated!
     
  8. Themo Lock

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    hang tight il have new one very soon
     
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  9. Kal2

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    Fair enough, point taken.

    Perhaps I should have had a new paragraph after the first sentence. "These solututions" refers to the two presented.

    The answer is in my statement, by shifting the game meta away from a player controlled meta, determined by player actions, choice and concequence, to an NPC controlled meta. An example of this using the offered solution would be having a player who is a known expert pickpocket being spotted in a town, but the spotting player not wanting to engage in PVP combat because a group of powerful NPC guards will be involved, likely attacking the aggressor. This is an example of an NPC driven meta, as opposed to a player driven meta, where the choices that a player makes are more likely to be determined by the actions of an NPC, rather than the actions of other players.

    I would imagine that the majority of the playerbase would want to play in a game where they interact with many other players, be they friends, guildmates, foes, or others. People not interested in this aspect of gameplay are more likely to only be interested in the 40 hour or so single player storyline. If solutions presented that offer an equal footing for PVP come at the expense of this multiplayer experience, then they would, in my opinion, be detrimental to the gameplay of the majority.

    From my personal experience in online gaming and PVP, being of a much lower level than those around me hasn't stopped me from enjoying the PVP aspect of the games I have played. I has simply meant that I play a support role in group combat, staying behind the 'front line' more powerful (higher level/better equipped etc) players, coming in for burst attacks then retreating. Combat with someone of an equal level was always found using the "duel" interface, rather than in the open world.
     
  10. CaptainJackSparrow

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    Captain Jack is not quite sure there is any other outcome of actually having levels. Having levels means there is a reward after each, and there will always be a race to the next level. Is there a way to truly get rid of all leveling? Even skill based stuff is "leveling" so, what is to be done?

    Also Captain Jack would like to pose a question to the discussion. Who want's rum? No, that's all Jacks, a different question then. Captain Jack has played quite a few games that do a great job in making the grinding fun or a little less noticeable by linking it to an event. No he is not talking about levels 0-5 kill green rabbits, levels 6-10 kill yellow rabbits, none of that nonsense. But triggers in the game world that are equally enjoyed by all players. Say an undead onslaught, you can participate in that part of the story, kill many skeles in the name of the king as you can, because if you don't their invasion will have an ill effect on the rest of the world. If were to be done like this, would you be less inclined to notice that you were actually grinding? If you combine events like that along with all the other XP and what not you get from story, it really comes down to the amount of time you've got to put into it no?
     
  11. helm

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    OK so the first one is 1:1 control point limits and the second one is having NPC guards that are more powerful than now.

    Various solutions to control points have been discussed rather extensively in the forums, including the 1:1 one. Perhaps it is too early to think of the solution, when control point do not yet matter that much anyway due to availability of "zoning", but if we agree on the premise that it would be good to have more folks turning their PvP flags on, then control points need careful consideration. Each solution (1:1 included) has its pros and cons. I think it does not concern the subject matter (grinding) that much so I'll leave it at that.

    This is one, perfectly valid, point of view. I play a little devil's advocate here and say that according to another viewpoint, this could be seen as a form of harassment against our expert pickpocket. So she happens to be good at pickpocketing, and has a PvP flag on, so lynch mobs follow her where ever she goes? Also from the guards' point of view, attacking would be seen as just unprovoked violence.

    I don't like solutions where the first response is unprovoked violence. An alternative "RP supportive" solution might be (just as a quick example from the top of my head) sounding a warning "HEY! Take note of our light-fingered friend over there!", then people who heed the warning would be able to activate some kind of "Raise awareness" skill (part of the focus tree, available for everyone early on) that would considerably raise the thief's chances of getting caught in the act (and if caught, this would also aggravate the guards and give "permission" for others to participate as well).

    Yes, I would agree that most folks would prefer interaction, but the big question is, interaction of what kind and nature? There are many aspects, forms and modes of interactive gameplay, not just one. It is simply incorrect to imply that folk would either be agreeing to "take the whole package" or just be interested in the single player storyline.

    As an example, I can of course only speak of my own case. I am certainly interested in various forms of interaction, especially cooperation and trade. Whether or not PvP related interactions are going to be among them remain to be seen. My personal issue with PvP is not that I would not be able to handle myself, I probably could quite decently. But violence needs to have a reason, preferably a good roleplay based reason. I simply don't accept "reasons" like "I am Mr. PKillz4Lot and it is my deepest nature to kill everyone in sight" or "I approach u becuz i am part of a necrophilic thug guild that w4nts to 0wn this control point" or "I attack u because my guild and ur guild are in a pointless war against each other becuz there exists a game mechanic for it" or "let's just attack that random group cuz we're bored". Because too many PvP advocates (with too few exceptions, at least vocal ones) on the forums have given very little indication that PvP in SotA would be anything else than random [content/story/rp]-free encounters with the primary motivation to escape boredom, or pointless "guild wars", my PvP flag is likely to remain in the "off" position. But as said, it remains to be seen. I might be pleasantly surprised when the game actually comes out.

    That sounds like fun. :) But it's not for everyone, for reasons of personal preferences (I mentioned some of mine above as one little example) or personal real life situations -- for example, group combat demands certain focus and presence (you just can't be afk every second minute) and e.g. having small children severely limits focused playing opportunities (in contrast to grinding that can be done at almost any time) to specific relatively narrow time windows.

    This game appears to attempt the extremely difficult task of catering to the needs and wants of very diverse groups. Many people think that this is impossible, I do not. But it does require careful consideration from all viewpoints, facilitated by civilized, factual discussion. Thank you for doing just that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  12. Wilfred

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    A Pirate King (-:
     
  13. Sire Lancelot

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    That old chestnut - yes it's definitely a grind, I feel your pain - my carpal tunnel has never been worse :mad:

    Perhaps the game is not panning out to be a great PVP style game? Or take a few releases off and come back.

    Just saying...
     
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  14. Cinder Sear

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    We need a training ground for grinding, one that grants extra XP on skill-use, not put into the pool... :)
     
  15. Cinder Sear

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    I'm grinding, not to pvp, but to be able to solo a ghost, or two even.. and it's slow. If group leveling is way faster, that's just not fair in my opinion.
     
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  16. Cinder Sear

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    Also, it has been said that leveling is faster if you have a large pool.. how true does everyone find this? Meaning, the larger the pool, the larger percent amount of xp is able to come out of the pool into the skill used... I have a bit of trouble trying to keep more than 1000 xp in that pool at any time. And often, it goes to 0. I know I can turn off many innates to help.. but um.. I'm training???
     
  17. Elwyn

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    The skill level will still advance the same (except maybe you might see defensive skills go up faster when getting trashed), but XP that goes into the pool is scaled based on what you are fighting.

    You can't see that number anymore, but in R20 I could see that various mobs that I was able to defeat gave XP like 100, 300, 800, 1200, 2100, depending on how tough they were, or at least how tough they were supposed to be. So if you fight the same weak low-level mobs, it will take you longer and longer to level up. However, skill bumps happen with usage, so your XP pool would be drained very quickly.

    The problem happens when the stuff you need to fight is overpowered in certain ways, such as always ganging up on you makes them more difficult to fight solo.
     
  18. Chris

    Chris Tech Lord Moderator Ambassador SOTA Developer

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    This is true once a skill gets up a bit. There is a minimum number of uses per level to reach the next level. At low skill levels, that is what caps advancement. As skills progress into the 30's and 40's, the limiting factor is usually that you only apply a certain percent of your pool each use. So keeping a large pool of exps will help advance skills at higher skill levels but less so at lower skill levels.

    My advice on this is still the same as it was day one, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT AND JUST PLAY! :) Also, know that you can train in all your passives at once but it will mean everything progresses a slower. Most passives are very linear in their bonuses vs most actives being a curve with diminishing returns. Most passives, especially stat training, require a LOT of exps to advance though and you could get around 10 points in an active skill for the cost of one stat point.
     
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  19. Moiseyev Trueden

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    The only issue with stop thinking about it and just play is that if you aren't selectively min/maxing your skills you wind up very quickly with 0 xp and nothing training for most fights, until something is killed and then everything trains for 3 seconds before nothing is training again.
     
  20. Abydos

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    It would be nice to remove the statistical Adventurer Level from the Caracter Stat (v).
     
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