The Hard Questions & Ideas

I disagree. I rarely anymore look at my deck. everything is keybinded and I have practiced at a practice dummy enough so that muscle memory kicks in and its fine. I would advice train some more.

 

This is a great thread and the devs could learn a lot if the thread doesn't mysteriously disappear So I got into this game at final wipe and while it had its issues, I enjoyed the concept and figured they just need to finish it so I played it, leveled my toon, and just had fun and I sucked up the bugs and things. At some point I got into the youtube arena and made a slew of videos for this game, some of which you can find on ports own channel. recently I have discovered streaming on twitch and so I started doing this game, cause I love this game but one thing I noticed was not to many people were streaming this game and I looked, everyday. even today I looked and saw no one. Now my channel is small and I have a very long road to go if I want to build it up and so I came to the conclusion that I need another game to grow my channel with but I have not given up on this game and so (against the advice of others who said you need to only do one game until you have a dedicated audience) I have decided to do one or two days a week of this game but I did take a break for the last two or so weeks because lets be honest, the sheer boredom of xp grinding in the same 2 or 3 zones got to me and I think that's one of the problems.

Some perspective. the last few weeks I have been testing out elder scrolls online as the game to help me grow my channel... In elder scrolls online I was literally finding myself overwhelmed with the sheer amount of things I could do with my time. In shroud while I love the game there are literally only one or two things I can think to do that I enjoy and after a time boredom sets in. first off the loot system is just terrible. I spend way to much time trying to sort out the trash from the stuff I actually want and to be frank there is not a lot of the loot drops I want. @Superbitsandbob has it right. this game needs a kill/loot/ aww feels good element which it don't. if anything its creates frustration cause you spend all that time killing the dragon or demon or what ever only to get nothing. there is a balance between keeping the crafters happy (which I am one) and the adventurers happy by rewarding them for their adventures. They have not found that balance yet.

@majoria70 also has some really strong ideas and I like every one of them. The questing system ranks at the absolute top of my list. They keep saying the questing system upgrade is coming but frankly, its not coming fast enough. A lot of my main quest tutorials on my youtube page are out of date and need redone but I am waiting until the "new system" is implemented but its not happening fast enough. and like @majoria70 said they need to tie all the zones together so that it feels like an immersive experience cause this one doesn't.

Raids. we need a group raiding system and a good one. One of the things I struggled to finds as I was streaming this game was content I felt others might like to watch. There are two players who are still streaming shroud (I mention this since some I use to watch have actually left to play other games) and while I enjoy their personalities, I only watch them for their personalities cause frankly shroud is not a fun game to watch others play in its current state. Epic raids content is something I see streamers in other games doing that attracts large audiences over and over and here is the thing, a game that attracts large groups of people who watch others play it is also a game that attracts large groups of people who will want to play it. I am talking epic raids here that require 8 to 16 players to clear with epic boss battles that require exact coordination and tactics. Multiple tanks and Multiple healers. maybe different difficulties like normal, hard mode, knightmare, etc. EPIC!! and rewards that make a person want to go back over and over and over. not this we just completed this raid that took us an hour to clear and all we got was some rusty spoons.

Pvp is another go to for many streamers. heck there is a streamer I watch a lot and all he does is pvp and his average audience is 2000-3000 viewers. granted that game is much larger and been around longer but their pvp system (I won't mention the game here) is vastly superior to this one. what I would like to see this game evolve into is a game where I log in and literally get overwhelmed with the sheer amount of things I could do. If they run with some of or all of the ideas of @majoria70 and others here than it has a chance to get there. I think it would be very much in their best interest to step back and actually look at the game objectively. there is a saying. to close to the forest and all that jazz. I am a loyal avatar and have dumped far more real world money into this game than I EVER have with any other game and so I shall stick it out with fingers crossed and see what happens.

P.S. So I think this new dungeon system is cool and all but if they are so short handed like they say I think their time would be better suited building up an amazing raid system, revamping the quest system quickly and then add to it to make it better, and really work on the pvp. maybe alliances and what not. this dungeon thing feels very much like a nich to me and a nich thing will not give the game legs. just my two cents.

 

Sure, that works with a static deck or highly restricted one, but once we start adding new features that require attention and a dynamic deck, that changes the situation significantly.

 

I do agree, there is s dire need for a Global Search board for finding items for sale, you are speaking strictly as an Adventurer in your perfect Loop of Kill/Loot/Feels Good, where "Feels Good" is a matter of opinion and different for each individual... I do find it fun to kill critters, carve their corpse and receive a hide and body for further uses and occasionally I get their head which is also useful for further using... If I wish too, I can sell these items quickly for the Gold which is lacking from this critter...

Am I adventuring, Yes... Am I making use of the materials for later, Yes... Some call it crafting... Do I feel Good about doing it, Yes... I enjoy this game because I can...

What doesn't feel Good to me is the fact I can't make a profit, as Adventurers do, simply by killing/looting, they have a distinct advantage over me to make huge profits...

Did they spend more time in the game than I, probably, but even if I spent the same amount of time as they did, I would not be able to make a profit, as they do...

With a Global Search board a true supply/demand model of an economy can be formed through competition between sellers, then pricing will find its own leveling point, giving me a chance at rare resources I could never get on my own, without as you say: doing the boring, search every player vendor from here to the end of the World, just to find nothing I am interested in, nor can afford...

There is hope, with the affinity system planned (I hope it's still planned), you can once get a Fire Sword of Dragon slaying +10, it will be crafted by a player and used to kill Dragons and you will have to set it a Fire on your own, but it will carry the prestige you desire...

If NPC pricing were in line with materials used to make the item, I'm sure players would then be willing to sell a +10 sword to an NPC so it can get into the loot table... But until then, I guess it won't be much fun for you... Nor the player who is scrapping +10 swords as its more profitable to do so...

 

You make great points and the current vendor system is something I forgot to mention but its a serious turn off for me. There is zero fun in running around looking at all the vendors when all you need is one item only after 3 hours (which is your allotted time to play for the day) you fail to find what your looking for and most of the things are priced out of your price range. not fun at all. there is another game (whose name I won't mention here) who has taken a similar approach in that they have these "guild vendors" that players can place in specific towns and if you want to search or buy their wares you need to travel to that specific town and talked to the actual merchant. Now this system has the potential to encounter the same problem as here except a third party stepped in (that game supports third party addons) and created a website that's updated frequently with all the player merchants wares and pricing and locations in the game so if you want to buy bronze sword for example you can search for it on the website and the website will tell you which vendors are selling it, where said vendors are at and what the cost is. You still have to travel to the specific town and talk to the specific vendor but what you don't have to do is spend hours of your time traveling vendor to vendor looking for something you may never find. In conclusion shroud needs some sort of centralized system like this. I don't buy their reasoning for keeping it the way it is now and I feel if they do keep it the way it is now it will drive players away. I would think they would want people to keep playing their game right????????

 

My deck is not static or highly restrictive. most of my decks have the first five slots unlocked and the last five locked. skills roll in to the first five and need to be stacked etc. the skills on the back half need to be charged. i do most of this without a hole lot of attention payed to the deck. I won't say I NEVER look at my deck because I do every now and again but most of my attention many times is spent on the fight and what is happening around me.

 

Global search would just make the problem with vendors worse IMO.

Right now, the biggest problem is that most vendors are "sundry vendors," or "junk vendors," that have nameplates like "Odds and Ends" and have a little bit of everything, so you have to search through them all to find what you want. Global search would just increase the number of sundry vendors. While it would also make things easier to find, it would also force everybody to use the search system and disincentivize people from building specialized shops, which is what will make the economy work and make it prosper.

Right now, for example, I can never find the things I want, not because its hard to look through all the vendors, but because not many crafters aren't making and selling it. But say I know someone who runs a blacksmith shop, and knowing they're a blacksmith, I go to their shop, drop them a note and say "I want such and such, can you make it for me?" They can then start putting these items on sale. I could also ask "Can you repair these items for me?" And can get a repair job started with them.

This is what we need: a market system that encourages specialized vendors, not sundry vendors. This is more complicated to implement than a global search, but not that complicated IMO. For example. We need a true bulletin board system in game where people can advertise their shops, and not simply bulletin boards as deco that people just ignore -- which is what it is now. We need more types of shop signs, and a system for shop signs people use to show up on the mapping system, so a blacksmith shop will show up on the map as a blacksmith shop based on what signs they use, and the shop names can also show up on the town criers. We need a broader system which opens up vendors to more permissions, like allowing all guild members to list items, or all POT members, or public, so anyone can list -- matched with a system that could restrict what is listed (so I can say people can list weapons on my vendor but not reagents). We need to be able to drop notes directly in peoples mailboxes. And there's a bunch more stuff that I think would help, but I want to get to that in a separate post.

Bottom line is, yes the current "shop hopping" gameplay is annoying and frustrating. But IMO global search would make it worse, and the devs should stop trying to use the easiest to implement solution to solve problems, because its usually also the worst way to solve them.

 

Your not going to be able to do away with junk vendors. They exist in all games. Players think that things will sell and they post them and they are wrong but your not going to be able to do away with this. what you do have is the ability to control the ease with which customers find the quality vendors. a centralized search system is perfect for this. what it will do is allow the customers to find the quality vendors and over time the market will weed out the trash. On the upside if people keep finding the same vendor via the centralized search system who has the stuff they need at a price they can afford than people many times may just skip the search system and go straight to them but first step is getting customers to them and to do this it needs to be easy and not time consuming or frustrating. A bulletin board system is not the answer either because it still requires lots of time and effort to find the boards and search them for the advertisements. Not a lot of people have a lot of time to search vendors or bulletin boards for what they need. there may have been a point in time where these antiquated systems were appealing but in this day and age with people getting everything they need at a touch of a button (amazon and what not) they just don't work and ultimately will drive people away. You have to understand the player base to have a successful game and you have to accept when times change and not hang onto old systems that no longer work....

 

On a follow up note the current vendor system has been the main driver why I have pushed to craft my own stuff and NOT buy from others. I can never find what I need and so felt the need to be self sufficient. If the system was easier less frustrating I would be more prone to use them and not so driven to just make my own stuff myself. I really only shop for crafting materials and those are only at one or two vendors that I know sell them and are close to me. If there was an easier system in place I may be more inclined to actually find others out there that are selling the things I want and actually give them my business specially if they are priced better but that's not going to happen in the current system.

 

@ShurTugal

I never said you would be able to do away with them.

I said what we want is a system that encourages specialized vendors, and that there are methods to do that, like the number of features -- not just one feature -- the devs can offer I described in my last post as an alternative to a global search. A bulletin board system would not be hard to access. It would be at the front of every town, and it would pop up showing items in that town, as well as perhaps have more global listings. The shops would also show up on the maps and be listed in the town crier. I think it would all be pretty easy for folks.

And like I said, I think the system you're proposing would make it harder to form relationships between sellers and buyers and would actually close off certain avenues for player cooperation. Oh yea, except if you want to say, "go use global chat", forcing players not only to use global search, but forcing them to use global chat to play the game.

You're talking about everything I'm describing as "antiquated," but I'm not really describing the way MMOs used to work, because MMO developers really haven't bothered doing it. I don't believe the ways most MMOs work right now isn't because its what players want, its because its whats easiest and cheapest to implement. What I described also wouldn't be so complicated or hard to use IMO. Plus, there are also many other MMOs that work like the way you describe which have much higher name recognition and I don't believe Shroud is going to be able to compete with them just because of minor sugar on top of the game like the music system is better or the combo system is great or whatever.

Now, we can discuss that and disagree on those points...

But I also think there has a drumbeat by some backers since Kickstarter that have forced every forum discussion into this kind of debate, and what I think is a false dichotomy: Make this into every MMO out there, which has chosen the easiest solutions to problems, or make an antiquated tedious game which nobody will find fun and people will not play. Every possible solution that isn't the simplest, easiest solution is criticized as "antiquated" with overstated, never-proven assumptions about what people want or have the time to do. And I don't personally believe that every discussion on game features needs to be detoured into that kind of debate.

 

I don't believe players as a hole really care about relationships between sellers and buyers. some of the more successful market systems in games mimic real life and in real life people really don't care about a personal connection with the seller. Take amazon for example. There is nothing personal about amazon and yet it does amazing because they are fast and efficient. there is nothing better than ordering something I want from amazon and within hours have it hand delivered to my front door. ie fast and efficient so I can move on with my life. The successful market systems in games recognize this and create systems that are fast and efficient so that players can get on with their gaming lives.

 

Yea, I do want to be able to go to a vendor and request an item from them that I can't find other places, and know that they'll be able to provide that because they're specialized. Or be able to ask them to repair items.

I also like think the bulletin board system I'm describing is needed for so much other things, like POT activities, guilds, and quests, and the like, and I think creating guild and POT vendors is a good system for encouraging community gameplay, which is also good.

About Amazon... At least most of the sellers on Amazon are not sundry vendors and you can do that with them Even then, it can become really frustrating when you are dealing with an Amazon vendor that can't give you answers about a product because they don't really know what they're selling. In most cases, I think people would also tell you its a much better experience to go to retail stores, if they have the items you need. You go to the store, look at the items in person, can ask questions, get the item right away, and then can return it the next day without prepping shipping. The main value of Amazon IMO for most people is retail stores don't always carry what you want or exist where you live or have bad prices. If they did always exist where you live and always carried items and always had good prices, I think Amazon would actually be a poor business model IMO and lose money. So I think you're overstating the virtues and popular appeal of Amazon's business model.

At any rate, we're talking about a game and not real life. It takes seconds to travel somewhere and potentially check out a bulletin board. Not longer than it takes to go to check out through Amazon's website. I also personally would argue your idea of "getting on with their gaming lives" also reduces the players game lives to something very limited, which is going out and grinding. Which, even if that's what floats your boat, and don't really want to do anything but combat, doesn't really justify knocking down IMO what would be a pretty easy experience in favor of an even easier experience, but one that isn't as good for gameplay

 

@ShurTugal would that very popular PvPer be Fengrush? If so, I love that man! Also, I agree with your points on PVP, I want a system for shardfalls that resembles Imperial City in ESO, it is wonderful!

As for the Items, What I would love is to have more T3 components become drop from bosses, this would create the Kill/Loot/Aww factor, and keep the current crafters dream in place.

With the incoming changes to crafting, items will become less and less pricey, and thus will help to make the items become accessible to everyone. This is when T3 components will become more important, and where loot will help tons.

 

I don't agree with this assessment at all...

Perhaps if players were to choose the vendor names more wisely, they could instill a feeling of what their vendor was selling, like "Blacksmithing" or "Leather works" or "Tailored goods"... I personally don't bother with a bulletin board because of its sheer size, it takes up realestate on my village lot, plus in order to put a note on it, one needs paper to write on, which is not readily available, Yes, I could offer paper for sale, but that would take up inventory space (it's kind of funny that paper does not stack)... If it did maybe a player could hold a stack of 10 for just posting notes...

This is an old idea, that has never worked in the past, so why think it would work now?

In real, the online community is across the World (Earth), in different time zones and most have completely different ways of playing the game, most don't play as if this were their own livelihood, that's not to say that some do... Some are "Hardcore" players, but most of us are casual at best, a Global search would tell you if an item is being sold and where, but if nothing turns up in that search, then maybe the item you are seeking isn't worth making or selling... A Global search IS a form of advertisement, and Yes, a public bulletin board is advantageous, but the way our boards are set up, one must look through all the different sheets to see what they are saying... This only complicates the search for items because one must now look through all the boards as well as all the vendors, so I see no advantage in advertising in this manner...

Perhaps if all the boards were tied together somehow, so that one only need to open one board, and see all the notes across the lands, but isn't this the same as a Global search?

Somewhere in my writings I suggested that the "Town Criers" be the interface for the search, if that were true, then I would have a reason to go into a POT to speak to their town crier and search, it's not exactly a Global search, but rather a regional search...

The thought of having to leave the game to go to a website and search is not appealing to me, it leaves my chr standing ingame, where who knows who is picking their pockets clean, while I'm AFK...

 

@SmokerKGB

People who set up vendors tend to have different crafting skills, and they craft things for people to buy because they want gold to spend in the game, and if there were tools to make market interaction between players easier, and a crafter were asked to make something available for gold, and the price is worth it, I'll bet you anything he'll do it. I do realize that this isn't a real job for players, but that's how the economy generally works in a game -- its why crafters craft things -- they want to craft things for other players to buy, and I think we want to do what we can to help this out.

But despite that this is true, you just don't always see it because there isn't very much incentive for players to market themselves that way, or tools to market themselves that way. The market in the game is generally set up for vendor-hopping. The whole economy is currently is tooled for that.

However, on the other hand, there are a few popular POTs that do organize vendors on the basis of specialized shops. For instance, Crafters Town -- where every vendor has a different category of things for sale. Some big guilds also try to do this and then spread their vendors through different towns. The way the POTs/guilds do this is they give vendor permissions to other players, so they can collectivize their efforts. And, yea, they do set up the nameplates to reflect what they're selling. And people who visit those vendors tend like this a lot. They can go to the same vendors over and over, instead of having to do vendor hopping. Its a win-win, for both the sellers and the buyers.

But I think doing this is currently harder than it should be, and it requires a lot of coordinated effort. Its hard to give blanket permissions on a vendor to a guild or a POT. And its hard to get the word out about these guild shops or POTs in any other place than the forums. There aren't a lot of shop signs available, they don't coordinate with the map system, its hard to put up a list of shops on a town in the game.

So basically what I'm suggesting is for these things that people are already trying to do, to be able to be done easier, and with less effort. These are all things IMO that should be made better in the game even regardless of whether there's a global search are not. We need a good bulletin board system, we need better store tools, we need better vendor permissions, we need better tools for player communication.

So IMO these are all things that need to be built into the game anyway. And I think its proven to work. On the other hand, IMO a global search would also undermine players who are currently doing all this, because it also makes these kind of community and guild efforts less valuable if people can just go around them.

Anyway, as far as any BB system goes...

What I would suggest is have a kind of interface where players can sort between local POT sales and regional and global, where BBs generally cater to regional economy, which I personally still think is a good thing. The town criers and maps should I think show the store types based on signs used. And I think it would be ok to set it up so one lot can have more than one type of sign. So a player can set up a shop with two signs; one for weapons, and one for armor, if he wanted. I personally would argue against using town criers to search complete inventories, because the goal would be to find a specialized shop you like, and then build up a trading relationship with them, which again I believe would be a win-win for buyers and sellers. Sellers want to sell things that people want to buy, and buyers want to be able to go back to the same vendor over and over again.

 

This is NOT a win win actually, at least NOT for the buyer. What I hear described here is a monopoly. Basically these guilds are setting up a system where they can control the price of goods. Monopolies are never good for the buyer. what if there is a vendor out in the middle of no where that is selling some of these items that the "guild vendors" are selling only cheaper?? The only way to find said vendor is via vendor hopping which it seems we can agree is not a good thing. In the system I am describing (and ya it can be broken into regions and all that) when you type in a search for an item and the results come up than you rank by cheapest to most expensive and wala your like "oh would you look at that, vendor so and so out in the middle of no where is selling what I need for cheaper so if I am willing to travel I can save a buck." it basically brings competition into the market place which is great for buyers. Your system sounds like a bunch of monopolies which are bad for buyers.

 

@ShurTugal

Nah, because people would naturally go to places within their home town, then in the region if they couldn't find a good seller in their town, and only go out of the region if they couldn't find a good seller in the region. And if they were travelling, they'd go to a town nearby where they were travelling rather than their home town. Either by knowing those shops ahead of time, or not knowing the shops and doing a pit stop.

Basically I think the regional economy / regional gameplay concept was good -- the devs just have never committed to doing whats necessary to make it work.

Also, if someone is going within the same town, there might be two weapons vendors, for instance. And if they start to have an unreliable experience with one, they could start looking at the other. This other vendor could be listed on the town crier, shown on the map, advertised on all the bulletin boards, shouting to others that they have more goods and better prices...

The relationships would only be as stable as they're useful for the players involved. Which won't always be the case.

So, I don't think this would encourage monopolies at all, but work closer to how a local retail market works.

 

Please start a vendor debate thread OK. Here are my thoughts before you do. The point of this thread is to get all ideas for necessary additions we feel need added to the game. I'm not saying vendor ideas are not one of them but imagine if we just got that. Imo that would not be enough at all. Come back to the point of the thread which is to list all of our must haves for success. And that can include vendors but not only.

Like today I went around to all vendors in wizards rest and wrote a page stating a description of what is on each vendor in town and posted it on the bulletin boards in town.

We have about 19 vendors. Will anyone even read it before looking at vendors in town? Does anyone point at signs to read them or read notes and game tips I post on the bulletin boards? I think very few do but I do try. So continue on with ideas.

 

Every good game needs real PvP (full loot), period. This game is full of protagonists with basically no antagonists. I don't count the monsters, npcs as antagonists. Real PvP, step out of the town and you are at risk, along with real thievery is needed. What happens when there is PvP?

1. Players start to play with different gear.
2. Players start to leverage different skill trees to compensate.
   
3. Players start to hunt and adventure with mates.
4. Guilds, with a war system, have another real purpose.
5. PKers develop contrary tactics and skills and it is a cat and mouse game.
6. Even new players learn how to start out, live and play differently.

Say what you will about PvP, this game is an uber Trammel game and the content gets stale fast! So because of this the precious little time this small staff of developers have is spent making content that is ages super fast. Don't believe me? Here is a challenge @DarkStarr , @Chris and @Lord British …

Choose a Friday-Sunday weekend and turn the entire game PvP/Full Loot. See what happens. Advertise it and leverage the Free to Play so new players can get some characters built up and get in on it. Watch the dynamics of the game play, how the current systems are tested, how many people participate and so on. In other words, see if the players respond and have fun. I'll sign up to play, hell I'll stream the play on every day for the heck of it. Take the reigns off the game and see what happens. After the weekend, put it back to normal and hold Q&A stream to discuss the results.

Now when I say "advertise it", I mean advertise it. Promote it for 1+ months to let people get prepared so you can get some good data. At a minimum you will have the data that either supports the desire to keep the game as-is or to what the masses want.

That is my version of a gauntlet and I place it at your feet.

 

If someone were to ask me what were my most memorable moments in sota ... i would answer

1. I was at a party in Ordinis Mortis organized by Lord British ... a Mysterious traveller showed up and started summoning cabalists ... There we were probably 100 + people and cabalists spawning everywhere ..atacking us..many people died but we won the day . It was exciting and unexpected.

2. I was there when Garlic obliterated all teams in a tournament organised by Cerus . Fire everywhere... I saw many great players fall that day Antrax, Mac , Dhanas, Sara Dreygon none could stand in their way ... Garlic Team was just unbeatable ... it was a shock to realise what the game could become.... and how far from that we are still.

We got the obsidian trials soon after it was fun and exciting for few days/weeks .. but then it just died of ... i guess people didnt think it was rewarding enough ..and i cant blame them ..after all the rewards are still just a title and a potion...pvp store improvements ?

We really need to loosen the time sinks in the game and focus on content that brings players together instead of separating them. We put too much time and effort on features that isolate players . Right now for example the major focus is on dungeons . Will dungeons bring people together ? I think it will enlarge the rift even more .

Where are the raids ? Where are the pvp stores ? Where are the guild wars ? Regional wars ? Faction Wars .. Any wars of any kind ? .. Fish as deco or dungeon rooms to decorate are nice but we really need an endgame .

Global search feature ... Good or bad ? Finding something you need to buy in the game is a MAJOR time sink ..one we should do away with . I really see no inconvenience with having a regional/global search . Why force players to waste hours to find something ?

We need Gear stats - I know Chris published the formulas for crit and other stuff... but really how many players actually wanna spend their times doing the math to see what their crit chance is or if one bow will give them more dmg then another bow ... all this should be done by the game .

I wont even go into crafting ... so much that needs to be done there .