The missing key!

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Brink1123, Apr 4, 2018.

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  1. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    So, you wouldn't support @redfish's extortion idea then.
     
  2. redfish

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    The issue of dominance is kind of a distraction. All competitive games have winners and losers; the only difference is the stakes and the arena.

    All I'm saying is that in the context of role-playing the stakes have to matter to the world, for you to be fighting for real reasons. This naturally has to have at least an indirect impact on players who chose not to PvP.
     
  3. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    So, you wouldn't support @redfish's extortion idea then.
     
  4. Ravicus Domdred

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    I like redfish and he has many good ideas. His may not be ideal to me but he has substance in them.
     
  5. Brink1123

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    if you have other options maybe not as good options sure i dont see a prbloem with it
     
  6. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    PvP: How to win friends and influence people.

    If the only way for PvP to be Meaningful is to impose itself by inconveniencing others... like the alternate routes to avoid the necessity of entering a PvP+ Zone to complete storyline quests... If that is to be the new Normal for PvP implementation in Shroud of the Avatar, then I will reverse my 5 year long support of the inclusion of Consensual PvP in the game and hope all of you decide to leave.

    I don't want to be bothered by Your game.
    I don't want to be included, directly or indirectly in Your game.
    I conceded to the alternate routes... I will find it increasingly difficult to concede to further impositions.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
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  7. Ravicus Domdred

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    How do you want your pvp Rufus?
     
  8. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    I don't PvP.

    Decades of exposure to the PvP community has made it clear that it's not a community I wish to have anything to do with.
    It is Not about healthy competition. It's dominance headgames and epeen.
    Do whatever you want to do so long as it doesn't affect me.
     
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  9. Ravicus Domdred

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    So this thread is a discussion about pvp. I thought you might have some input on it. I am sorry if I was mistaken.
     
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  10. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Discuss all you want. I will make no judgement about PvP until such time as it affects me.
    If you want a defecate emote in game so you can crap on the corpse of an opponent... Have at.
    If you want to be able to dismember the corpse of an opponent and scatter the bits... Have at.
    Do whatever you wish so long as I am unaffected.

    Ceding control of my comings and goings to other players is Not something I will concede.
     
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  11. Brink1123

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    Rufus This is Human Nature, its not only confined to Pvper nature.
     
  12. Ravicus Domdred

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    I do not think anyone here mentioned anything about rude gestures in game. I think we are trying to figure out what will help the pvp player base.
     
  13. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    Then I am not human because it is not in my nature.
     
  14. redfish

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    Well, I'm not a PvPer at any rate; I'm a role-player, which is why I look at what I think would be meaningful PvP from the perspective of role-playing. If I go into a fight, I want there to be motives on both sides for it.

    I didn't like PvP in UO because players often would just gank you for no reason, just for laughs -- no motives. I don't like PvP in SotA because its basically the same -- except quarantined into PvP zones or to people flagged PvP. It gives me no reason to ever flag PvP in the game. I don't care about the extra XP, or extra resources, or other extra goodies the devs try to throw at me as a carrot. I might PvP if there was a reason to, though.

    Though, talking to a lot of UO PvPers like @Ravicus Domdred , I've found that what they really like is the role-play, too. There were anti-PK guilds in UO whose main interest was fighting the bad guys, and defending the PvE population. There were people who also enjoyed playing the bad guys; not necessarily because they were bad guys in real life, but because it made the game more interesting.

    A lot of the UO PvPers I've talked to, like @E n v y , for instance, would also be perfectly happy with a justice system that penalized bad behavior in some way.

    But I also think there are a lot of players like me who are basically for all intents and purposes PvEers, but who would welcome some of the same mechanics that some of the PvPers want if it were well done and balanced correctly... a lot of player behavior is driven by game mechanics, and often when PvP turns toxic and abusive its because the game mechanics allows it to. Lord British once relayed a story about a thief excusing his behavior by saying the game encouraged him to engage in all that bad behavior, it also allowed him to do so without any major consequences. So I really think its an issue about designing good mechanics vs. bad mechanics, rather than a problem with "the PvP community".
     
  15. Ravicus Domdred

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    I think this is coming in the future. I am not sure where it is but EMP quoted to me where star talks about guild vs guild warfare that would only be against each other. Theoretically you could have guilds dedicated to practice for pvp with this because it would be like a "big duel".
     
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  16. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    I disagree... That thief in Lord British's tale Chose to be a thief... He chose to repeatedly steal from a victim who had No Ability to Protect Themself... That is NOT a deficiency of a system, it is a deficiency of a person.
    Anyone who whether in real life, or a game, choses to victimize another human being because the system doesn't prevent it is a deficient person.

    Here... This quote is very relevant to this discussion.

    "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do **** all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and **** you. You know what I mean?" - Penn Jillette
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
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  17. Ravicus Domdred

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    I am trying to stay out of the social justice argument here and stay on topic.
    @redfish , one thing that enabled good pvp mechanics and the ability to role play in UO was the guild vs guild system I keep mentioning. Without interference the guilds could then choose to select certain gear to wear. The warring guilds would agree to (for example) only wearing gm weapons and armor. The ranks in the guild determine what level of gm armor could be worn. For example the recruite could only wear the basic leather, cloth or iron. The Upper ranks could wear the better armor. But this would make the battleground equal. You could not compete if you where outside the set parameters of what was planned. The battles where never scripted for a winner but they where just planned and ether side had a chance to win. The would claim a prize like "takes the gold from the wagon" or "capture the princess". This stuff would be planned ahead of time depending on who one.
     
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  18. redfish

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    I remember that Lord British came to a different conclusion than you, though; he decided that the player wasn't wrong. Ultimately, the game encouraged people to play bad guys by putting thievery skills in the game, and all the while, the game mechanics created minimal risk and little consequences for that particular thief.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you that some players lack empathy in the way they engage in PvP and so don't play in the most ethical manner. I think its important to remember, though, that people look at games differently, and often players who lack empathy basically think that because its only a game, its not a big deal. It doesn't mean they're not ever wrong, but most people who steal in a game aren't going to become thieves in real life.

    Something I think Lord British games have successfully done in the past, still, is build in enough consequences to unethical actions that we're encouraged to think twice about them.

    UO didn't do this sufficiently.

    To the degree that SotA doesn't do this sufficiently, I agree with the same line of thinking Lord British adopted with regards to stealing from NPCs : if there aren't sufficient consequences, don't allow it at all.

    So, I'm okay with restricting PvP to consent in ways that are necessary. However, I think PvP can be both fully consensual and also have meaningful stakes, and that's basically all I'm arguing for.
     
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  19. Rufus D`Asperdi

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    I've got no problem with that... None whatsoever... keep that 'occasional' PvPer that lacks empathy from affecting me, and have at!
    As soon as PvP, or a PvP Proposal affects Me in a manner I don't consent to, I'm going to voice my opinion.
     
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  20. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Few reasons why you can't find people in the shardfalls.

    1: The world is too big. Devs don't seem to have factored in the fact that at any given time, the PvP population is spread out amongst a large world and we haven't had time since launch to raise the PvP population to the point where there are enough people to be in all of the PvP zones at the same time.

    2: PvP is the only reason to go, and that can be done anywhere.

    Putting those two together.. too many places to PvP and not enough PvPers to fill them up.

    They are there because someone thought that making a PvP only zone would somehow concentrate the PvP population, but that would only have a hope of working if the places you can PvP were limited. Then they went about making more interesting
    places to PvP, like the Fall.

    To be fair, the success of this strategy relies on a situation we've yet to see in game, that being a fully populated world which could not be achieved pre-launch and we are only just beginning to work towards that we have launched. There was never any real chance to see how well it would work (or not work) until Portalarium goes fully invested in actively bringing in players. So we still aren't at that point.

    Personally, I never thought it was a good idea to make PvP only zones in the first place. I do believe in PvP deserves something special that gives it purpose. I just don't think PvP only or forced PvP is it. Victory in a PvP oriented area should have more meaning than personal bragging rights and a little loot.

    The upcoming castle siege scenarios may well be on the right track. PvP only ruins, shardfalls and dungeons? I don't think will ever work as they stand. There's no point in doing PvP in them as opposed to anywhere else.. there's nothing to concentrate active PvPers in one PvP zone vs any other PvP zone.
     
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