The net effect of card combat on me and how YOU THE PLAYER can start a REVOLUTION

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Prince Guni, Jul 26, 2014.

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Do you like random cards?

  1. Keep those random cards coming!

    95 vote(s)
    67.9%
  2. I don't like random/chance/clicking but want to focus on my tactics instead! Fixed cards please!

    45 vote(s)
    32.1%
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  1. Prince Guni

    Prince Guni Avatar

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    I am very sorry to say that and I do appreciate all the effort put into creating a new type of combat system, especially in light of rampant macroeing in other games.

    Please don't misunderstand me: There is a lot I like about Shroud of the Avatar and I don't regret buying a very expensive pledge. It is still evolving towards becoming a great game I am looking forward to be released next year.

    But, unfortunately, the net effect that card combat has had on my game play so far was only to randomize my skill/power usage. Especially in fast combat situations it would just become an annoying click-fest of clicking whatever usable card would show up and clicking away whatever unusable card would show up. Together with the awkward controls (left hand used for avatar movement, right hand used for camera movement, only my nose left to trigger those powers while targeting had to be done via mind control...) it really created a weird combat experience.

    I understand that the original idea was to force players into making interesting choices of which cards to preserve and which to click away (also later to be able to play combos). Maybe this works in a normal card game. At least for me, this did not work at all in a real time combat situation with twitchy avatar+camera controls in a 3D space with stuff like LOS etc added in.

    One appeal the successful classic Ultima games (Ultima 3-7) had for me was (turn-based) tactical combat with interesting options and choices. Today this is present in games such as XCom or Divinity, but I haven't found any of this in SotA. This week in SotA I had to make some interesting choices in skill training and deck building, which I enjoyed, but combat itself was a near random click fest and struggle with my keyboard and mouse. Current combat in SotA is just the total opposite of what combat was in the classical Ultima games.

    I also played many of the major MMORPGs, both 2 1/2D and 3D, including PvP. I also played Ultima Underworld which was probably the first 3D RPG ever and had a simple combat system that was fun and enjoyable for PvE at the time. I know the problem in some games of people just repeatedly clicking 1-2-3-4-5... on their keyboard to trigger their favorite set of powers or folks even macroing (which is of course much easier to do when you always know which key triggers which power). I totally appreciate and support the effort of the Portalarium team to innovate here and I also don't have easy solutions to these issues. The macro PvE farming problem could probably be solved in a different way though: just have some random event once every couple of minutes that requires a unique reaction. In PvP I don't see either macroing or mindless 1-2-3-4-5.. clicking as an issue at all (and where there is no issue there need not be a solution).

    I think for now I will root with Dallas. @Dallas: Don't give up! You are my man! I know you are surrounded, I know you are outnumbered in your office. Please don't loose hope!

    As for now, I suggest that every player here who has the same issues with random card twitchyness replacing tactics with chance vote with their decks!

    IF YOU DON'T LIKE RANDOM CARDS THEN VOTE FOR DALLAS! YOU CAN VOTE OUT RANDOM CARD TWITCHYNESS! CHOOSE DALLAS MODE BY LOCKING ALL YOUR CARD SLOTS (AND IGNORE THOSE FOCUS PENALTIES FOR NOW)!

    I don't suggest Portalarium to stop innovating. But randomization and twitchyiness just isn't my thing. I like to develop tactics. But tactics require that as a player I actually get some time to think, plan, decide and act and don't get dragged into a clicking contest, otherwise it becomes an action game of reaction and dexterity instead of a tactics game of thinking.

    Besides that, I would also love to see Portalarium add a fixed/automated camera mode so that we players can get our right hands freed up for targeting/keyboard/powers.
     
  2. Carlin the Druid Archer

    Carlin the Druid Archer Avatar

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    Personally I really like the deck system. I find it a lot of fun and adds skill/strategy without requiring twitch (which is not possible with lag)
     
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  3. abovenyquist

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    I think what you're coming up against here -- and I am too -- is that because the thing is massively (or selectively or whatever) multiplayer, the combat has to be real time (nobody will want to wait for others to take turns), and that is always inherently going to be at least a little bit twitchy. There's no way to get that level of thoughtful turned-based strategy that you had in the classic Ultimas here (I kind of have trouble including VII in that, since as brilliant as it is, combat in that game often feels like a giant blur.)

    I played with the card system for a bit, and got my butt kicked. I played with a locked deck for a bit too, and got my butt kicked. I resigned myself to the fact that I would always have problems with either system, and decided to just go ahead and have fun. And I did. ;)


    I agree that the camera system right now is borked. I wind up looking up my avatar's nostrils way too much, having no idea who or what may or may not be hitting me; a more zoomed out camera would make combat scads more manageable. (That said, I don't think anyone in any "fully 3-D" game has really "solved" the camera problem).
     
  4. Kabalyero Kidd

    Kabalyero Kidd Avatar

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    yup... I like it as well... playing with the various deck combinations is actually fun... you can create strategies based on situations since you can create numerous decks...

    of course, if players want the typical mmo skill bar then you can always lock them down... now, if you become bored with the locked skills then switch to active skills... fun, fun, fun for everyone... heheheh
     
  5. Prince Guni

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    I can also do this, and better, by preparing multiple skill bars with locked skills for multiple combat situations. In that case I can plan tactics and strategies much better because I know which skills I will actually have available and don't need to be lucky for my tactics to be available.
     
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  6. Prince Guni

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    Yes, I know. That is why I mentioned that I also played other MMORPGs that, by nature of the MMO part, are not turn based but usually timer based. Combat systems such as e.g. the one used in Shadowbane with timers are still quite tactical without players having to wait for others to complete their turns. It is sort of the closest approximation to being turn based in an MMO without disrupting the flow of game play with actual turns. The timers on skills and actions actually help prevent things becoming too much of a clickfest by giving everyone adequate time to react (so it is not just turning into a contest of quick clicking and click reaction vs choosing the right actions and skills). I actually like timers and cool downs on skills. They serve a very useful function!
     
  7. Prince Guni

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    By the way, the way things are working now will not prevent gold farmers from running their macros: they won't care about a focus penalty or about a smaller selection of locked skills available. Normally they use over powered characters to farm some weak enemies anyways.
     
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  8. Kabalyero Kidd

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    so, there's really no problem... it's a win, win for everyone... :)
     
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  9. draykor darkale

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    I would suggest they just use the lock card feature.

    I don't mind the random element, kind of beats the formulaic by the numbers waiting for CD in traiditional mmo combat.
     
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  10. rune_74

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    Hmm I think the system has already started a revolution...it's new and cool:)
     
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  11. AndiZ275

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    Sorry, can't sign this, since I really like this combat idea and after some testing through the dungeons of Ravenmoor I hadn't much points to be upset. Since this is going to be a real time game, I don't think it's possible to go back to the tactical depth of the earlier Ultimas (btw. Ultima VII was never famous for it's combat system). So this rune system (why don't the devs want us to speak of cards or decks? even the game tells us so :p ) is a nice compromise for me and I'm waiting for the combos and other stuff to include even more variations.

    Offtopic: (( As a solo player I think there are other points, that deserve much more attention, to make this game interesting (like off-combat intelligence and wisdom based passive and active skills: lock picking, exploration, rune reading, talking to animals, leadership, haggling, provoke, intimidation, map painting, etc.; I need to write a thread about it, when I have time). At the moment everything we've seen so far is typical MMO stuff with some nice variations (Combat, House Decoration, Story and Chatting). I'm missing a bit the depth of good single player RPGs (with different paths to solve quests). But I have some faith in Lord British, that we will see some quests other than "Go there, kill skeletons, get rewards"... ))
     
  12. rune_74

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    You and me both.
     
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  13. draykor darkale

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    I'm surprised with the lack of single player stuff too, but its pre alpha, so we got plenty of time for that, the fact that it has a single player offline element leads me to believe we'll see a strong single player element.
     
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  14. Prince Guni

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    It is not win-win if you make the fixed deck option uncompetitive by slapping people with focus penalties etc.
     
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  15. Beli

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  16. Logain

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    Now I'm slightly flabbergasted. You said there's a tactical benefit to always being able to plan ahead an have access to the exact mix of skills you desire, but on the other hand, you say if there is a slight penelty to providing you with that tactical benefit over other, you're becoming uncompetitive? Which one is the case now?
     
  17. Kabalyero Kidd

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    but... the non-locked skills are random... getting slugs is penalty as well...
     
  18. TranZdog

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    There is a focus skill that increases your Focus. So can lock your desk and offset the penalties by using that.
     
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  19. Prince Guni

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    Try PvP in SotA with a >250ms ping (e.g. because you are located somewhere in Asia, like me) against someone with a <50ms ping and you know what I am talking about. In many standard MMORPGs you have a fixed deck and an action queue, which means you can trigger several actions and powers in fast succession on the client that will then be executed sequentially on the server and spaced/delayed with timers. It is more of an asynchronous system. In SotA it is really bad. There is a delay with the cards-show-up-on-the-deck thing, then you can trigger one power and usually can't move without breaking the spell until your client tells the server (first 250ms trip) and the server tells your client again (another 250ms trip). This whole thing seems to be highly synchronous. I just went one-on-one against another player with a quite similar power combination as my own character and really didn't have a chance. When he was low on health he could run and still keep healing himself with healing spells (because he would only have to stand still for a very short time to trigger and execute a healing card). In the same situation reversed I had no chance: the time it would take me with a 250ms ping to heal myself (not to mention the time the deck would consume with its card updating) would be so long that any pursuer with a small ping would quickly catch up and get off multiple spells, doing a lot more damage than the heal.

    I am bringing this up because you are arguing balancing. The way things work right now, in addition to the general issues I brought up in my original post, really cause a major competitive disadvantage for everyone located further away from the SotA servers in terms of latency. Similar problems exist in games such as Darkfall, but they are by far not as big an issue in games with power execution queues such as Rift or Lotro. The more real time and fast reaction based you make things, the more you screw non-Americans' chances in PvP, because no matter how fast my reactions are, those 500ms roundtrip (not even considering ocassional lag spikes) will always limit the speed I can trigger powers. Without a fixed skill bar and an execution queue things just become very bad. Needless to mention things such as LOS, distance and so on when what shows on your screen is already half a second or more outdated!
     
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  20. Logain

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    That is a completely different topic and arguement from your innitial concern though and only very indirectly connected to a randomized combat system.
     
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