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Themo: end of release feedback

Discussion in 'Release 25 Feedback Forum' started by Themo Lock, Jan 12, 2016.

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  1. ThurisazSheol

    ThurisazSheol Avatar

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    then above average would become the new average, and it would once again become simply a DPS fest, which is simply put, boring.

    wow. wrong attitude bucko.

    or more likely they'll lose interest in the game and not pay port any more microtransactions.
     
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  2. KuBaTRiZeS

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    sooo... you're implying that if i play 1 hour should get the same amount of progression than the one who played 10?
     
  3. ThurisazSheol

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    for that one hour, yes, you should get one hours worth of progression. for the person who had 10 hours, that first hour should be the exact same hour of progression you got. for the reamining 9 hours they also played, why that should be 9 hours of progression. nobody should obtain modified xp over or under anyone else.

    if there is an xp gain anywhere, everyone should get it, no one sect of people should get it while the rest do not.. we are all subscribers, just not via a monthly model.

    and certainly, a LOTM should get the EXACT same xp gain anyone else gets, for what it's worth.


    (edit) to be more clear, this is assuming we do the exact same things to obtain xp, no more no less.
     
  4. Cinder Sear

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    A few around here think that.. and I can't understand why! :rolleyes:
     
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  5. agra

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    Not on that test, no. I did try it again with a 20% hasted weapon, and it was 20% faster (420 swings). On another character, I had the blades haste innate at 2.5% and it was 358 swings, as expected. So, haste does appear to be working, and with the 20%, seems to be worth it?
     
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  6. KuBaTRiZeS

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    Ok then now i'm officially confused :confused::(o_O:eek: Emote spree as form of confusion!

    Let's rewind a bit. In the post of mine you quoted i was trying to imply exactly that, that if i play 1 hour i should get 1 hour of progression, against the guy who spent 10 hours that should get 10 hours of progression (with the same assumption you did, ofc). I think some form of "rested bonus" can be fair, so the time of people that can only play 1 hour a day worth more than the one that plays full time. I think it's not unreasonable at all, and you seem to agree with me... And i certainly agree with you that each one of us already got our shinies from our pledge so any kind of bonus while progression regarding pledge is injustified.

    The point i still don't get is... why should they lose interest in the game and leave? it's because something i said? :oops: it is something i said right? :( Please tell them not to leave i'll just say other things! :oops:
     
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  7. Sophi

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    Hey Themo! thanks for this thread :)
    I certainly agree with your points -- and had lots of fun being an archer/air mage this set of releases....got to be an archer FINALLY!!! and I loved it!.. except for like Edward said, it was really hard to get started, I spent all my time grinding for gold/resources for ammo. I didnt even bother pursuing archery at first, just did basic sword until i had a stockpile of resources (and thank you Womby and Doctor Shroud for you guys' awesome help there!) enough to make it worthwhile to start training archery - and i think i was around lvl 30 at that point!
    Well not all of archery is even in yet, but I'm already having fun with it - can't wait till i can shoot multiple arrows! muahahahaha ;)

    I also think it's fun figuring out how best to balance skill leveling and exp pool.. but as i tend to be out there actually gathering stuff and killing things regularly I didn't have much problem with my exp pool or with skill decay. But i've been off for a bit now, i'll take a look at what's happened to her :)
    I was only able to hit 1 gm (ranged combat) before i hit my max tolerance for short-term leveling (lol) but by then I was adv lvl 68 and had quite high lvls (like 80's) in all my ranged innates and a ton of other stuff.

    I guess what I'm saying is that, yes the game is set up to favor people who get out there and play the game... but that's kind of the point isn't it?
    I have to agree though that skill decay is too severe. Peeps out using their skills every couple days should not experience any decay at all! I mean that's just not reasonable.

    On the other hand, if a person is gone for months at a time, then yeah I will totally agree with you on reducing their skills... gradually and perhaps not past a certain point though..
    So some happy medium there perhaps :)



    p.s. sorry! I only read the first couple pages of the thread and the last couple posts, so if i'm repeating what someone's already said, i apologize -- been very bad lately at keeping up with the forums.
     
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  8. ThurisazSheol

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    ok, i think we're on the same page on this, but that one thing differs, mostly semantics i think. but lets try to get this one understood. - i was commenting specifically on what you think they would do - get there eventually, by saying they'd lose interest instead. many casuals are like ADHD children when they game - playing whatever game strikes their fancy that day, and getting bored easily. - some casuals, like myself, however are ex-hardcore players and still have that determinationa nd focus you spoke of, just not the time to put forth on that determination. - i was not speaking of casuals like me, i was speaking of what i've noticed from the average casual gamer. - look at their desktops. how many more f2p games are shown on there? when was the last time they touched them all? :)

    if port wants the average casual gamer to stay and pay, there does need to be multiple minor incentives for them as well as for the daily player. for the casual, they can be minor because they add up with more weight than for the daily player.
     
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  9. KuBaTRiZeS

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    Ooooooooh... now that clears everything up! And yes, i agree with you on that as well. Even being B2P we'll see some players that just will hang around and leave... And that's not taking in consideration those that buys the game to play exclusively in Single Player Offline.

    Personally i want lots of people to stay, since this game is oriented to be player driven, the more players there are online the more potential it has. Now, from Portalarium (business) point of view...

    This point of view really got me thinking. The way i see it, i don't see many casual gamers contributing beyond buying the game because almost everything in the addon store requires land (or a room, when they're for rent)... And when something like an outfit comes up we're almost immediately asking "but that's going to be craftable?", pushing to have more things in game and less in the addon store, or, at the very least, to have them available both in game and in the addon store. Same thing when something looks remotely useful there is an uproar about how this became P2W. I'm not too familiar with microtransactions, never spent money in them before pledging here and the only game i played with those for long was Vindictus... but my experience says that casual players usually spend money in advantages and outfits, and i'm happy not having almost none of the former and just a few of the latter.

    Of course i agree the game should have incentives for people to stay, and that's what i always try to push for... a game that's enjoyable from an earlier stage of play, with mechanics that tries to make everyday a different adenture and where the sense of progression is still kept even in endgame... but imho there is a huge gap in playtime and dedication before a player that buys the game on release starts spending money in the addon store. The daily player will eventually buy something to decorate their room, and regarding the progression of the addon store i'd go that way, releasing things like the tabletop dragon or the oracle or the chess, but the casual player... It's trickier. Can't think of anything for that now.
     
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  10. ThurisazSheol

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    i'm thinking it would have to be disposable - thats where the majority of the cash comes from with microtransactions.
    i wouldn't mind having xp boosts on the shop..hardcore players and casuals alike would use them.. and only for a very short time, in the hardcore world, would it be pay to win - until eveyrone catches up to where those filthy rich ones paid there way up to the top.. :)

    skins for armor, is a HUGE market from my personal experience in guildwars2 - just about every piece or armor is skinnable and a skin at the same time. i've purchased epic outfits to use as skins on lower tier armor sets...and weapons too.. heck, i purchased one epic bow, to reskin another epic bow - so i could have both the look and the stats i wanted. just cause. i did the math and that cost me the equilivant of 10 bucks when i did it (i never did, but you could in theory purchase gold from the cash shop itself)..

    deco items are less throwaway than collectables.. while skins are quite literally throwaway items. truly disposables. :)
     
  11. KuBaTRiZeS

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    I can see how convenient is having disposable items towards selling the casual player market. But i think both of your examples (armor skins and progression boosts) conflicts with some expectations of the game. Crafters been asking for customizable equipment since i came into the game; being able to craft cloth pieces and assign a pattern to mark how it does look like. I personally dislike armor skins in the Addon Store, but don't think entering in the "how could that impact the game" merry-go-round is productive, just say i'd like to see that kind of feature in game as part of the crafting system, regardless of wether they're for sale or not.

    Regarding skins, in Vindictus one of the most popular microtransactions was underwear change. The huge amount to choose vs how ugly the default underwear was made lots of people to spend money on that. We could argue about including something like that, but in the spirit of SotA i'd like to be able to craft those things first.

    Regarding the xp boosts (or other kind of buffs for that matter), they're for sure the most juicy point to be on sale. And while i can see the point of having those for a sales standpoint, they once again go against the philosophy of the game. Lots of people are calling SotA P2W already, and almost everything sold in the Add-on Store is cosmetic or have just a convenient effect... maybe winning for them is to have a completely decorated home? don't know, but buffs for sale is P2W for sure. Also, having an xp boost in a game that intends to have an infinite feel of progression (because of decay) is too convenient to not have it, and that's something i definitely don't like.

    I'd like to highlight i'm not taking a stand for it or against it, just speaking my mind about the topic... i'm kind of divided between the dream of the game being a closed world on release and the reality of how cash incomes are too convenient to just let them go. Now that being said, if i'd have to bet for a compromise solution... i'd choose to go down the road of xp boosts and buffs, but with two conditions
    • They should only work in characters below a certain level, so they fulfill the purpose of helping people with more money than time to reach the competitive tier (maybe until 60 or something like that) but not to unbalance the high end tier itself... let's not forget that if having buffs for sale is something that encourages certain people to spend and stay in the game while they're leveling up, it's also a turndown for the people that leveled up and finds out that the ones that dominate are the ones that spent more money... we already have RL for that :p. This tries to achieve a game that's P2BATW (Pay to Be Able To Win) instead of P2W, because when you reach the level when you can start "winning" you cannot pay anymore.
    • The currency used to get those shouldn't be "addon store credit" but also something that could have presence in game, like tokens to grant you the "favor of the Oracle" which you can get with real money, but also with in game gold. That way those who prefer not to spend money in microtransactions still have access to those. You could also have some kind of quest where you give each player one of those that allows them to buy something without expending money, having the effect of presenting the store to the player and allowing them to experience the effects of those.
     
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  12. Noric

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    On the Casual versus Daily Progression side of things : What does everyone think of the daily 4x we have now or similar stuff to that?

    I know it might not be permanent, but i do like the whole daily bonus thing in terms of cycling between high activity and low activity. I mean if i play a lot, i get a lot more xp on top of the daily bonus. If i don't have time to get on much, then i know if i get a small time to log in i can still get some meaningful xp for a small time investment.
     
  13. KuBaTRiZeS

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    I commented early about "rested" xp bonus. I'm all for it, but i don't see room for it with the current implementation of decay... where's the logic on gaining more xp because you're logged out and at the same time lose progress on your skills because you're logged out?
     
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  14. Noric

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    Its apples and oranges really - "rested" xp bonus applies to total XP pool, whereas decay is taking from xp applied to skills.
     
  15. Mimner

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    Casual's can get their skills plenty high under the current system. They just can't get 'every' skill plenty high. If you don't turn off any of your passives, they will suck exp fast. The exp you bring in will be spread so thin among so many skills that you will hit a wall and stop gaining in anything. You're going to have to be more discerning about what you put your exp into if you want to level up any particular skills. Skill management isn't min/maxing. Making choices about how you build your character is one of the most fun parts of role playing imo.
     
  16. Noric

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    I'm not sure I fully agree with you. In the current system, skill management is complex enough to resemble min-maxing and it is very punishing it you don't partake.

    I, like you, enjoy skill management, but I think the system is not immediately intuitive and the information needed to make decisions is not readily available.

    For you or I, that may not be a big issue, but I can see why a lot of people would get frustrated with it.
     
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  17. Mimner

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    I would also like to point out that raising too broad a range of skills is why many people are seeing such a problem with decay. I've built my character this wipe cycle as a pure mage and restricted my skill gain to only the most important skills for my chosen build. At level 81 I now have 32 skills locked at 80, with 21 of them passives. I stop at 80 b/c of the exponential amount of exp required to gm while the power of the skill only scales linearly. Anyway, the point is that I've seen absolutely no issue with skill decay.

    If you're spreading your exp too thinly, then your exp trickles into each skill you are raising, and there are more skills to decay at the same time. This eventually results in a net zero gain and you're going to stay at mid-level forever.

    The real problem with decay as I see it is that once I lock a skill it stays at that level forever. So, a true min/maxer could work one skill at a time, getting them very high and then locking. Thus, someone working on all their skills at once will never reach the same level in their skills as someone who works them up one at a time. Skill levels need to decay away as well to make it so people can't game the system like this.

    I agree with this. The system isn't very intuitive. It took me a couple months of experimenting to figure out the skill gain system. Regardless, I like a system that makes me manage my skills.
     
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  18. Noric

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    I wouldn't worry about the decay not deleveling - the broadcast seemed to call that out as being an issue and say that it would be fixed.

    Spreading xp thin snowballs pretty heavily, they really need to streamline their system so that it doesn't clog automatically when people use the default setup. That and there just needs to be xp related information resource that people know about without leaving game.
     
  19. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    I love to think that, just as our characters need to learn and train and improve their skills, we as players must learn and train and improve our gaming skills during adventure and exploration and combat and whatever.

    And skilltree/XP/deck management are among the skills players must hone to move from casually bashing wolves to mighty powerful world-saving Avatars.

    We often say we (for any definition of "we") want to reward gaming skills. This is one of the ways how we can reward gaming skills: learning how the skill system works, and how make it work best for you.
     
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