Thieves!!

I miss thieves (permagreys) more then anything else from the old days of UO. No game has even gotten close to what took place during that time period.

What do we know so far about thieving, abilities, options, and down right fun game play so far?

 

Little is known, and likely little has been decided.

RG / Portalarium seem open to adding some kind of thieving system, though if added it will likely only affect part of the PvP players (which I believe will be the same players that have player looting enabled, as the two systems go hand in hand).

On the other hand, seems like houses are absolutely safe no matter what.

 

Yes so far I doubt much has been discussed other then they want thieves in the game.
Best to post some ideas now.
I support going gray or criminal like in UO for a short time but others seem to be against that.

 

I had so much fun back in the day when the stealth/thievery mechanic was introduced in UO. I remember spending countless hours at brit bank trying to steal from people. God that was so much fun and a real rush when you was caught, not to mention how fun it was for people at the bank to mobilize against the revealed thief!

Those are the kind of mechanics that really make games fun and remember able.

 

It really is gnawing at me that the RPG/PVE crowd is so against any kind of interaction. Thievery is part of the immersion process and quite frankly it was a blast to even be stolen from. It often led to fun chases around town and inspired me to make my own thief. I never made a ton at it, but it created something fun to do and less repetitive than the normal tree thumping and rock smacking. My favorite was a thief/archer I made that would stealth up and steal regs or bandaids and then cut you down. He was great support in guild wars or against PKs who had healers in the back bombing them; " oh noes, I lost my spider silk or sulfur." <I think those are right>

 

I never played a thief in UO (though I often play a roguish character in other games), but I do think that stealing, like many other features, added to the dynamic of the game world. I recall having a lot of fun attempting to thwart thieves in Moonglow, and some friends and I catching and killing a traitor thief among our adventuring group who was subtly stealing things as we explored a dungeon.

 

I loved playing the Detective character - turning thieves back into grays and playing cat and mouse all over town. And since SotA does not seem to want to brave the divide between PK and PVM my predictions for this game are just like all the rest...doomed to fail before it begins...

The only way we are going to have a great game again will be when we want to heal the wounds within our community and bring us all together as one group again.

 

Strangely, I disagree. I don't think that it requires forcing some players that do not want to have thier items taken or their lives ended or their time wasted so that OTHER players have someone to steal from, or kill, or loot in order to have a "great game again". I also disagree that this game is "doomed to fail before it begins" because the devs are, wisely in my opinion, trying to make sure ALL players have fun, not just those that enjoy enacting their gameplay style onto someone else.

This game is not Ultima Online. Ultima Online was a great game, a ground breaking game, a genre-creating game, but this game is not it. This game is 15 years later and has the benefit of seeing what happened in UO that was right, AND what was wrong, as well as what was right and wrong in every game since then.

I sincerely hope everyone on the forum will offer advice to the devs to make THIS game the best it can be, with the hope that it will succeed and succeed BIG, changing the world of gaming again, and not only want "Ultima Online with better graphics".

 

I won't speak for anyone but me, as I enjoy all modes/styles of play, but...

No-one cares if they suffer a negative consequence (death, theft) from an NPC. That's normal and expected.

The PvE crowd, from what I've seen, is perfectly happy with interaction, provided it's not the kind that involves direct and unsolicited ego contact with sociopaths. Or put another way, a layer of insulation between one player and another, and you can expand your target demographic considerably.

 

I could not agree more. And I too had a thief who was super fun to play and honestly not much money was made by him either. I mainly just ran around dungeons and large wars and stole reagents and bandages (or disarmed and stole weapons!).

The debate seems to always be: "I just want to do my thing (fighting monsters, making chairs) without ever having anything bad happen to me by other players because I hate losing what I accomplished to other players" vs "I just want to do my thing (fighting monsters and players, making chairs and stealing yours) because it adds more thrill, spontaneity and replayability to the game"
being murdered is not the same as being griefed. neither is being robbed. You are out in the wilderness and it may as well have been a very strong monster that killed and looted you (happened in UO lol) than a player... It is like the uncertainty is what scares a lot of these people (when you see an orc you know what to expect, when you see a player you dont know friend or foe and thus it creates a feeling of unease and actually DETRACTS from them interacting with you). It could also be reverse ego: some don't care if they get killed by an npc orc, but being bested by a player stings a little (not to mention other players are usually much, much harder to kill than monsters).

Regardless, I am not gonna argue which side is better (I prefer the thrill) because frankly, everyone is entitled to play the game they want to play.

I DO however think that you need some players that DONT want to be robbed and DONT want to be murdered to make the system work (although theoretically no one wants to be on that end of the stick, even thieves and murderers lol). I hope there will be enough players on each end of the argument to match enough of us together for both sides to have fun.



Anyway, what I wanted to do here is draft up some ideas on how to make thieves work. It is inspired by UO of course but with some modifications. These are not meant to be realistic. I am just trying to balance the profession. Timers are suggestions and depend highly on how the game will actually work...

---this is assuming that criminals can be killed without any negative effects to the killer---

-stealing flags you as a criminal to everyone for a certain amount of time (5 minutes?)
-a character with some type of 'lore' skill should be able to spot who is a thief. They should be able to reveal and reset that 'criminal' timer on a thief who stole and got away with it turning that thief back into a criminal for all to see. Thus being a thief is dangerous for one's health
-killing a thief unflags them until they steal again
-killing a thief within a certain amount of time immediately after the theft (15 seconds?) should automatically return the stolen object to the owner. Killing a thief after this time will have the object stay on the thief's corpse and be lootable by all.
-stealing flags you as a criminal to the person you stole from until that person kills you once (lets say for 12 hours?)
-killing a criminal theif has no negative impacts on a character
-killing a thief who has NOT stolen after being killed should NOT label the killer as a murderer. It SHOULD label the killer as a criminal (for 5 minutes?) - (poses the question, how does one know another is a thief? by reputation or a lore type skill)
-killing a thief who lost his criminal label (but still has not been killed since last stealing) should NOT label the killer as a criminal

-Stealing should be random, as well as targeted: click steal on a player and steal a random item, or snoop them and attempt to steal a particular item. targeted stealing should be more difficult.
-heavier objects should be more difficult to steal. likewise targeting a stack of bandages doesnt necessarily mean you will steal the whole stack.
-There should be items which cannot be stolen (house keys? etc)
-gold should absolutely be stealable, however again depending on weight - if the target is carrying 2000 gold, realistically only 10-30% should be stealable at once.
-don't forget snooping, stealth and hiding skills. being a thief should not be easy to achieve.

if I think of anything else I will add later.

 

Just wanted to elaborate at length regarding what you've written here, postulio. I read your whole post, but this part stands out to me as an important couple of paragraphs.

In particular, the idea of:

and

These two statements bear out what I've observed for over 15 years in persistent multiplayer online games. When players are stolen from, killed, or otherwise negatively affected (cursed, diseased, etc) by NPC's, their ego is not involved. After all, the thing that "harmed" them has no ego (a computer, the server) and so there is no point in getting their own ego involved.

However, when another person is directly involved, such as player conflict that is direct, face to face, both ego's are involved, however little or however much. You know another player "harmed" you as the victim, and you know, as the victor, you "harmed" another player. Frequency can dull these sensations to the point where they matter little to either victim or victor (been there, done that many times, myself).

I've been a big proponent of indirect player conflict for the past 5 years or so. I see it as a way for all players to interact with each other negatively, without getting the ego involved. As you've pointed out, postulio, if an NPC harmed you, you don't care. So in order to allow for indirect PvP, in the simplest example, give a player the ability to tell NPCs to harm their targets. And I don't just mean a charm spell, I mean in a way the target can never know who sent the NPC.

Now, I recognize this topic is about thieving, but the logical path applies to any attempt by one player to negatively interact with another. If you want to steal from a player, hire an NPC thief. They will track down the player and attempt to steal from them. If you want to beat up a player, hire an NPC thug. They will track down and beat up the player and leave him lying unconscious. Take a moment and consider if these events occurred normally and with regular frequency, how would you ever know one was player caused, and one was just a random event? Well, you wouldn't, and that's the whole point.

There are ways to make these mechanics appeal to a huge demographic, and still be engaging and fun. In particular, everyone who has been burned in the past by ego-sociopath PvP wouldn't even know they were targets. And therein lies the real debate, from my perspective:

Do you want to directly harm another player?
OR
Do you want to harm another player?

A few players that advocate a Free For All, Open World, Full Loot, Die Anywhere, Attack Everyone, Kill Everything approach to player conflict would answer that without the direct contact, the experience is not gratifying. That's because for those players, it's not about fair, fun, or challenging mechanics. It's about ego gratification and nothing else. Those players, imho, you don't want as customers. In any game. Their goal, whether they know it or not, is to turn everyone who is not them into victims. I've played side-by-side with these players as the victor, and ultimately, this path is self-defeating. Players will not play (even for free) only as victims, indefinitely.

I think working out the mechanics, even in theory, behind thieving, stealing, burglary, and traps is a gratifying mental exercise. But in this case, on this topic, postulio, you've hit a real nugget of truth.

 

Really have to get into the lore more as to why there would be thieves. Just picking something up off the ground in Ultima IV - VI would start costing you virtue/karma. Perhaps the lore to this game will be radically different and something like that would fit in.

 

@vjek
Thanks.

And you are right, this debate doesnt really belong here, but I like that we think alike. However, I must add, that just because I want to directly meet other players in conflict, whether it be stealing or killing, does not make me a sociopath. It's also why I think we should have multiple character slots, so that I could have a thief as well as an upstanding Lordly character. And you are right, I have been involved in this for so long that whether I die or kill another player, it is not a groundbreaking or soul crushing experience. However it is vastly more interesting for me to play in an environment where this is possible, where I have to watch out for thieves and killers and people have to watch out for me stealing and killing. Simply put, the possibility is exciting and the activity is fun. Is that all I will do? Hell no. Do I want to do it anyway? Hell yeah. I will team up with players and go fight monsters and even other PKs and seek out thieves, but sometimes, I will don those other shoes as well. I will still contribute to the community and roleplay and hold events etc etc. Believe me I am not alone and most of the people I have met in my tenure in MMOs are the same way.

Luckily this game will allow you to choose whether you want that or only see your friends/guildmates etc. Everyone deserves to play the game they want to play. And Lord British is promising to keep us all happy.

I have absolutely no interest in hiring an npc to rob or kill you. I would do it myself though, and who's to say I will succeed in the first place?



Now, hopefully we can talk more about thieves and not this pve vs pvp issue. However, you seem objective and knowledgeable and I would more like love to discuss this in private if you have the same wish.

 

I do agree certain items should be soulbound especially things purchased with the crowd funding project. Thievery added to the realism because it was based on weight as well. I recall a pvper who stole bandages religiously and would just wear you down. He would casually be stealing from pvpers and then instigate a fight as his tactic.

Secondly, I find it so scary how cut off a lot of the RPG players want to be secluded from reality. Isn't the point to fully immerse yourself in a realistic environment? We are essentially trying to fill a fundamental problem in our actual societies; legislating morality. With a properly designed system open world/loot will work and not become a harassing experience. Losing some gear here and there is not the end of the world. Griefing players, such as res killing, constantly harassing after murdering them once is unrealistic. I d even venture to say that a potion or possible skill could be implemented that detoured the opportunity to engage or randomized the chance at engaging another player.

The goal is not to impose our will on other players, but to create an environment that submerges the players into roles. Plenty of games exist that are so vanilla and safe, we need the risk and reward. I don't know of another game that allows this type of role interaction amongst players and I would gladly pay for this experience. Do not misunderstand, I am not asking to pay for the ability to grief and kill players. I am asking for an environment that is not based on the UBER hard items to find, it is about the interaction and experience with your fellow players and the eco-system.

 

It's just a sign of the times, I don't know why said players even PC game. There are plenty of console, hell even PC games without ever having to interact with another player character.

 

I guess my issue still remains, it would be nice to find a way to get all three groups of player types (PVP/RP/PVE) to be able to play together in an open world and make sure that everyone is having fun. Unless this is fixed I do not believe that there is a game on the market or coming to market that will have the staying power that SotA is hoping for.

 

I think the point is that no single person is an exclusive member of any of those three groups, @Bugos

I PvP, RP and PvE. All are fun. In fact, I RP more when I PvP since monsters make terrible conversation.

Trust that no one wants a game where you get murdered the minute you step out of town... not even us PKers and PvPers. But a certain amount of risk and strife adds to the experience, believe it, that is why you will see so many people on these forums remember UO so fondly, its not rose colored nostalgia, I guarantee you this. Thousands of people play on free private servers which emulate the UO of that day, check it out, just because you can kill and steal everywhere does not mean that is what happens all the time. I am honestly recommending people who are very anti-PvP/PK and ant-thieving check out one of the popular free servers.

The dev team understands however that sometimes, you really dont want to concern yourself with the danger of other players, maybe you had a bad day at work and just want a calm game to yourself, maybe you only have 30 minutes to play that day and only want to spend it mining... you will be able to play this game however you want, alone or with others, in danger or in safety, with close friends and to make new ones. So yes, SotA will have players who are fans of all styles playing together and having fun.

 

The issue is not interaction; many of the PvE players want to play with other people, but in a cooperative way. The issue is just the non-consensual PvP, which includes ganking and PvP-based griefing.

And I don't think it's a sign of the times. AFAIK the number of players willing to expose themselves to unwanted PvP has always been small; look at how quickly most UO players left Felucca and went to Trammel as soon as it was available, for example.

 

I want a world where I can do stealthy things. I want to be able to hide in the bushes when a band of winged monkeys are flying around looking for victims. I want to be able to sneak around a sleeping dragon. I want to climb walls, trees, or cliffs (probably won't happen). I want to set my own traps and avoid traps set by others. I want to backstab a troll. I want to pick locks rather than finding keys.

 

Agreed! This is why online gaming will never eliminate the pen/paper gaming concept. If the game cannot provide all of the great things a skill or set of skills should provide like Sir Frank has mentioned, then what is the point in attempting to make another cookie cutter game with new twists. You need to provide new things along with the old things that actually work correctly!

Once again I will mention balance - if you take the time to build game balance into the mechanics from the start then all of our wishes can come true in one single environment.

Good luck