Third PvP flag?

I will start by saying that I may never use it and I dont think it would work well in this kind of game but it would help the small yet vocal PvP people who want hard core PvP.

This actually seems easy to implement.

How about we create a third PvP flag:

Hard-Core PvP
PvP
(not flagged)

This way, people who want to hard core PvP can flag hard core and all of them can run around killing each other with full loot. If you have that flag on, all your stuff just goes to the Oracle (easiest way to implement) or the body can be fully looted (seems like core would need to be created for this).

These people can then do what we used to do in UO, take everything off, wear a black robe with your character named Vader (ok, that was me), take a brand new Kryss, drop deadly poison on it and annihilate people.

I think the game would get a small niche of players who would do this and thrive.


I cant see *anyone* having an issue with this. If you dont want to PvP you dont have to and hard core people can hang out with hard core PvP people how they want.

 

Good idea but it would need a good reward to take such a high risk. I guess it would turn into a farm mode for hardcore players.

From what I have read in the PVP threads, people are missing a reason to fight - not necessarily a reward. Complains about the ransom loot was more from the people that used the flag to farm more efficient and got killed by Pks. I guess most people realized by now that with a crafting system in place that needs that much resources for a decent weapon - full loot might be too hardcore for most people.

 

I talked to Starr about a very similar idea a few months back, and he had a similar response.

I would also like this mode to make it so nobody can see where you are on friends list - that could be one benefit.

Other than XP, maybe they could enjoy higher gold drops or something.

 

Like I said I don't play the game.. dunno if thats possible in Shroud. But from my outside perspective the game lacked and maybe lacks drivers to play it and PVP in it. The mechanics it had, I think most people are fine with (ransom loot, consent PVP etc). But the game lacks depths in most features.

 

They created some new PvP specific artifacts for mobs, they should keep that kind of thing up. Gear drops that specifically help only someone who is fighting another player. I would say that it would be great if players may actually randomly drop one but then I know people with alts could just exploit that. Other then something radical like an XP bar for PvP (which could be exploited), its very hard to even think of a reward system that would work in a game designed like this.

 

What if only "Hardcore-pvp" enabled players could attack other "Hardcore-pvp" enabled players?

 

Ways a 3rd flag (hardcore mode) could work:

a) a 30% xp bonus w/ daily (artifact level) rewards for top ten earners
b) the flag cannot be removed until death or end of daily cycle
c) all xp earned (during daily cycle and while flag is worn) is lost upon death
d) ones avatar is never successfully logged out while flagged and the only safe area is the Overland Map (ideally, the safest and only place to leave such a flagged avatar is in an guild/ faction protected area where ones safety is in the hands of ones guild/ faction in an otherwise contestable PVP area; since this does not yet exist in SotA, the Overland Map is the next best, and far tamer, solution)
e) windfall bounties for flagged persons where higher xp earned corresponds to higher bounty payouts; an Oracle aided system of alerting as to the top ten flagged persons' xp earned and potential bounty payouts would have to be implemented, i.e., a daily leaderboard
f) the ability to pay (x) CotO to be able to "see" an avatars current location; having a person on a friends list and/ or using Fyndoro's Tablet would be a highly useful workaround

The rewards would get persons to flag for hardcore mode. The bounties would get persons to flag for PVP to collect them. This could go on all day...

 

soo lets look at PvP progression in this game - -

Developers state that PvP will be "Rewarding" and part of the game.
Shardfalls added to give player a place to PvP - Dead zones, no on e there and nothing there worth even going in to get.
PvP flag bonus to get sheep to the wolves - worked for about 3 days - then players realized not worth the aggravation.
((Stealing is also PvP and not worth the risk))
More rewards added to higher risk areas of PvP - sharfalls remain dead spaces
A whole town created for PvP to be like Bucs Den - There is no one there and no rewards worth the trip.
A Dungeon created that is PvP - A veritable pain to get around in - nothing rewarding there to make the trip worth the time and nothing worth the risk.

but sure go ahead give another level for PvP player to have - no one will use it since there is no reward worth that risk (as clearly pointed out above they all want more for it.

PvP is a bust in this game and will remain so until they can figure out how to overcome balancing the odd skill offset since there is no way to balance a game where this is no skill cap and no way to overcome the "Skill / Template" of the day.

Also there is the one fact that almost every player who wants to PvP (which could be A W S O M E) is that there are some people who have and still make PvP something that not one player wants to have to deal with. It is not the skill / loot / risk / ANYTHING . . . . .other than the few who have that "special" PvP mentality who ruin it for everyone.

 

I have no objection to pvp people killing each other. I strongly object to an ADDITIONAL non-pvp reward, ie experience bonus, being given to them for doing it.
Your risk is your gear, your reward is your thrill and potentially your victims gear. That should be enough.
Adding PvE incentives to PvP still just makes people who don't really want to PvP flag up and hope nobody spots them....that doesnt help PvP, it just gives PvPers more victims.

 

@kaeshiva while I think I understand where your concerns arise from, I ask you to consider another side to the coin.

While incentives do bring out ill prepared persons into difficult situations, incentives also prepare the way for a game to be had; they lay the crucial groundwork. Without any incentives, people don't put the time in and they certainly don't entertain risks.

An example: PVE is incentivized. There is a reason players don't run around after chickens and cows all day, instead choosing their PVE stomping grounds based on what they perceive as an adequate reward. In fact, if there were no perceived adequate rewards, the player base would plummet faster than a blinking eye; our time here is incentivized. Now, if you can wrap your mind around that concept, ask yourself this: if incentive is wholly appropriate and necessary for PVE, why is it not equally so for PVP?

All of the points I made in the above post re a 3rd Flag are none of them ideas of mine; all are taken from an already successful Open PVP game which also employs an additional "hardcore" mode or layer; I lifted the recipe wholesale from them. There are many ways to incentivize PVP; this is but one which is on topic w/ the OP and comes from an already existing, working model.

Incentivizing PVP should by no means be a non starter; this game was from its inception intended to be inclusive of meaningful PVP and game incentives are a part of that.

 

I have no issue with PvP having its own set of incentives, in fact I have argued for the implementation of pvp-specific incentives which help you in pvp.
Adding PvE-based incentives for flagging up (or to flip it, adding penalties for NOT flagging up, as it amounts to the same thing) is essentially saying if you don't flag up, you're missing out. That's a very fine line between being a "forced pvp" game when in order to make progress in the same amount of time, you have to deal with gank crap. Having a bunch of non-interested people flagged up just to get the bonus and hope they don't get noticed, DOES NOT CREATE MEANINGFUL PVP. It creates a bully/victim scenario. I certainly do not begrudge PvPers their own rewards, incentives, titles, progression system, special artifacts, special zones, special items - whatever. As long as these things are tuned around improving PvP cability and aren't things that would be desirable to a non-PvPer.

This is not meant to be an Open PVP game, laying the ruleset from such onto this one is going to alienate a very large pve-focused player group, who are already gritting their teeth at losing 20% experience for not wanting to have to deal with open PvP. I'm not talking about people looking for a fair meaningful fight, but people who derive enjoyment precisely from picking on non-interested parties.

In addition to shardfalls and ruins across the map - many of which contain unique boss monsters - a completely pvp exclusive dungeon which includes more boss monsters - a pvp exclusive outdoor zone (blood bay), AND the ability for any player to flag up at any time and kill any other flagged player, anywhere in the game, even in towns; a ransom system to take some of their stuff or some of their money - I think PvP is already pretty heavily incentivized, even before the "daring adventurer" bonus was added. I still feel this bonus is unnecessary and only serves to make people feel punished for not flagging.

The fact of the matter is, if I wanted to play a game where I had to constantly look over my shoulder, where I was afraid to step afk for a second, where I could get killed while just doing my thing or helping my guildmate or crafting something, then I have about 100 options for that sort of game on the market, right now, with varying degrees of player lootability and sandboxyness. I really hope that Sota doesn't follow this same mentality. I don't mind a bit of PvP when its what I want to go do, but adding additional penalties / inaccessible content for NOT doing it is, I feel, the wrong direction.

Want a third flag? So you can have full loot? Fine. Your incentive is if you kill someone, you get to loot all their stuff. I don't understand why that's not enough or why people feel they need an additional bonus on top of the very ruleset they are asking for.

That being said, add the bits you mentioned above about not being able to unflag on a whim / always being on forced multiplayer and higher xp loss, might be enough to mitigate the additional 10% xp. Hardcore should actually mean hardcore, flagging up to grind then recalling back to town and running to the oracle shouldn't be an option.

 

Agree with a lot you are saying... BUT:

It IS an open PVP game. Darkstarr mentioned it.. PvPvE will stay consensual though! So you pick the level of danger. It was a KS goal that we get PVP guilds etc... So yes there always will be PVP.
If you are hardcore anti pvp... you might get problems here... same as the hardcore full lewt pvp crowd.

It is about a compromise, without seperating the two worlds. I think most people want the best of both in a virtual world. If you don't want to be pked... you can avoid it here!

But like the full lewt guys have to compromise with a ransom system, you will have to compromise with being restricted to pure PVE content, which the game also provides.

They are not catering to the extremes, and that is perfectly in the spirit of old UO and Ultima...

 

A Bet is a Bet, Nothing More and Nothing Less...
The only thing I see in this, is that it should be an "it is what it is" option, with nothing else needed in any additional... "anything". A player is either PvE, PvP, or PvP full loot with other full looters.

The moment we begin making things special with regard to PvP deserving some higher reward, is the moment we loose perspective on the meaning within the thing. I can't see any great PvP artist needing anything from anyone's stuff, "it's just the point of the thing that matters".

But I believe that the final objection will always center around things that are special, because they took the risk. It's nothing more than a player's bet, which is like a Gentleman's or Lady's bet and if you didn't take the bet by choosing one of the other options, then it shouldn't effect either player's willingness to have taken it, "as their own personal option". You don't get to full loot others that didn't make the same bet, because they didn't take or make that bet. Sure that makes for using store bought items being preferred by the weak betting players who chose the full loot option. But if they're using the store bought stuff, it just makes them a weaker bet within choosing the option, because chances are, they will loose because they didn't use the much better player made equipment or held artifact.

I pay my bets when I make them and loose That's why I see no special additional "anything" being needed or asked for in return for having made that bet with all the vulnerabilities that came with that bet.


You're either one of the great gun fighters or your not and it's as simple as that, because it needed or needs, nothing but that
~Time Lord~

 

pve bonuses for pvp is beyond silly
insurance on items is beyond silly

give me karma and actual loot when i kill somone, some guards in town so we have a reason for blood bay ***REDS***
dony know why this has been a hard task for 4 years when most pvp people here iked pvp in uo '97.... 2017 and we dont know whats wrong lol

 

PvP and PVE are PvPvE here.. no seperation. So rewards for taking a higher risk could be various.

The lack of meaningful content either in PVE and PVP is a problem the game has currently. On both sides the game lacks depths and consequence. Killing a player near a guard and nothing happens is just plain lack of depth... same goes for PVE world building in that regard. POTs are nice for decoration.. But SotA wasn't supposed to be Ultima Collector 2 wasn't it?

From my perspective SotA gives nothing I would be interested in. And I am just an average casual. I don't read about epic fights being fought between players, or roleplaying events with great depth and politics that aren't alt tab dance parties... If I see news like that I might consider playing again.

It is kinda meh right now... All I read is people crying that they have to enter a PVP zone... OMG
and the occasional GIVE FULL LOOT dewd...

Besides that you got the dance party fairies that say all is fine in my Medieval Second Life, and the occasional rant from gamers like me that usually gets closed or deleted within a day.

All that is fine and to be expected in Early Access... but check what news you can read about the game.

It's terrible. And I don't see the guilds or the events to counter that.

 

I agree with @kaeshiva at all points and @Gildor2 last post above

For myself i'm still interested in PvP, but the most because i like to explore these highly Lore related and unique ruins and shardfall scenes.
I'm Level 70 and i began to research them, because there arent any pk around atm.
I wouldnt have a chance, i barely can fight the mob's there.
1-3 are maybe fine, depends on their type, but i often just run away

I won't flag, because i'm nor PK neither a KoV - I'm trying to stay always incharacter play my role what is a super neutral explorer, mage, truth-and wisdom seeking type of a "scientist", so i want to research Ruins and Shardfalls.
I'm fine if this are PvP Scenes, but i'm not fine with the imbalance between characters we have and that you need 1st a special approach to the game to get competetive and/ or month if not years to be competetive - consider that not all players like to be pulled or pushed and get everything from other players, but want to achieve things by themself.
I have no Problem that i may need 1 or at least two years to be competetive, but acutally i need to change my approach to the game and make a lot of compromises and neglect a lot of self set RP restrictions to be an authentic character to be competetive.
Ok , i also overcome that and i'm willing to take the risk - (ok there is no big risk atm, because there are only a few PK around, if ever)
I also like to roleplay some weakness, the scientist researcher i' am sure need not to be the top tier PvPer, but i'm also a Wizard and Adventuerer and Explorer, searching for Power and not only a bookworm, so i should be able to fight back some PK's or even able to efficently flee from threats like this.
I'm starting to give it a try now, because i do not feel as weak than 2-3 month before, but if i meet a 80+ PK i'll barely have a chance.
Not to speak of some 90+ or 100+.
Protection? Yes, but no - there are less germanspeaking roleplayers willing to do that and i'm not willing to make the compromise here.
I'm coming from Pen and Paper Systems and i roleplay computer RPG's like i RP Pen and Paper Campaigns.
PvE and the KI are somewhat the Gamemaster to me, there are also Sandbox Pen and Paper Settings...

I hope they will make things balanced in the way, that casuals and roleplayers etc. are someday part of the PvP Content and are able to be really competetive in PvP Areas, if they visit them because of Lore relation and RP.

 

Well I think some kind of „hardcore pvp“-mode is reasonable but I do think too that some kind of switching between modes would be…unfavorable.

Actually I would prefer to add an option on character creation/logon screen “hardcore pvp”.
This option has a tooltip that activating this option your avatar will have some advantages and disadvantages and that this option cannot be simply deactivated once it is active.
On activation this option you get a warning that this is a permanent change and you have to type your account password to verify this change.
(Just as an option there could be a way to deactivate this “hardcore pvp” but e.g. just after a week of activation or you have to pay 25 cotos to a strange monk in the deepest of a dungeon or … just something that you are no easily can switch back and forth)

Everyone outside of “hardcore pvp” cannot simply switch to pvp. A normal Avatar can just do PvP if the avatar is either on a pvp lot or in a pvp scene. Leaving pvp lots or pvp scenes will deactivate pvp for them. This would matter that the pvp bonuses could still be maintained but e.g. the experience bonus would be just granted if you are entering a pvp scene. (An additional option for pvp might be guild war if such a feature will be implemented.)

Advantages and disadvantages for “hardcore mode” could be this:
- “soft” skillcap at summarized 1000 skill levels (10 GMs) with every level above this border your avatar gets a debuff on his stats (e.g. a loss of 1% per level above 1000 with a max loss of 95%)
- e.g. 25% more gold they find on looting
- stealing and full loot active for these avatars
- some special quest and goodies just for avatars in this mode
- just “safe” in special and rare non-pvp-areas (e.g. the castle of LB)

(As there is a "soft" skillcap I do not think "hardcore mode" avatars would need the experience bonus all the time and thus I would suggest that they just get it if they enter pvp scenes just like normal avatars.)

This would mean that normal avatars could just do pvp in the pvp areas and just there they could fight with "hardcore pvp" avatars while "hardcore pvp" avatars could fight themselves nearly everywhere but do not have to fear that some normal avatars without the "soft" skillcap instant kill them all the time. They just have to be especially carefully in pvp zones as there they can be attacked by normal avatars but of course still without full loot. (full loot allways just between two "hardcore pvp" avatars)

I think a solution as this would get us as close as possible to the „needs“ some have mentioned.

 

Old topic with many many threads long since archived.

1. Cost of PvP is bad
2. Flagging controls are too convoluted
3. Loot in SotA sucks even for PvE