This card system is for the birds

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by netbios2005, Nov 5, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I've always been concerned over the card system, however I have been surprised as time has gone on as it is better than I thought.

    In general I would say it is better than the modern MMO styles (wow, gw, aion etc) however it is nowhere near as good as UO. I also don't beleive that it has removed what was considered by some as button bashing.....I actually think it encourages it more in order go do damage and to get rid of glyphs.

    I mentioned that it is not as good as UO, this is simply because you could bind every action and every spell to a key and you had full control......I'm not sure how this style could work in SotA unless you had full character movement on the mouse (you would also have to zoom out more). The other part of combat that seems to be missing is the whole countering system, the lack of ability to choose what you do does hinder this.

    I like the ability to swap decks.......I would love to see the ability to have more that 9 glyphs at a time.....I would also love to see a real solution over combo glyphs because the current system feels clumsy whether you use the mouse in the keyboard to combine.
     
    Joviex, Dane and Akiera like this.
  2. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    To be fair there is absolutely no real skill involved in duels for release 11. The imbalance of combat swings full advantage to very crude templates and when you have two templates the same in combat atm you may as well just toss a coin.
     
  3. mikeaw1101

    mikeaw1101 Avatar

    Messages:
    2,353
    Likes Received:
    1,687
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Lone Star state
    I really want to like it also, but I keep finding myself not doing so. Worse is that the dev team is turning a completely deaf ear to many of the criticisms. I cringe to thing how it will be greeted once the "public" gets a shot at it. $1.99 steam sale anyone?
     
    Joviex likes this.
  4. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England

    I really really don't understand why people think people script in PvP based upon the position of spells. Players would never script offensive spells/moves because you then can't react to the situation that is unfolding (that is why in a game like UO a anyone who scripts combos die very quickly). The only things that people have tended to script in PvP are defensive things like healing (non spell such as bandages) and chugging pots ......in other words more consumables that don't interfere with offensive combat.

    In shroud, it is likely players would lock healing/potion glyphs down anyway.
     
  5. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

    Messages:
    8,336
    Likes Received:
    28,405
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ~SOTA Monk~ ~Monastery~ ~Thailand~
    EA and the likes of companies have poisoned our minds to believe that there is only one way to do anything...

    The Mouse Trap...
    There is much more to card combat than meets the eye and the human mind is much the same as a trained mouse that wants to do the same things over and over again to get it's cheese "because it's been trained that way".
    EA and the other gaming companies have trained us as mice, yet in our SotA combat system the mouse is taught not to always count on what is repetitious combining both the observation as well as those counted on skills that become our old crutch give to us by our repetitive gaming industry.

    Staying and being observant within the fight with chances of strike abilities are much deeper combat design than anything that is on the market today, thus the frustration of the trained mice effect that we first encounter with the card system can seem difficult and thus much more challenging, though can seem frustrating at times because of a new learned behavior of the avatar/player relationship.

    Nope, this isn't Kansas anymore Toto, so follow the yellow brick road in a new way of combat that more fits the reality where even the best of soldiers do get killed because the luck of the draw just wasn't there :(
    There's also more to it than cards as well once you've learned more about what works best and in what position to use it in... ;)
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  6. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,403
    Likes Received:
    23,554
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Don't really understand the feeling behind why you'd want to address that vs my post?

    I didn't mention PvP specifically. I think scripting is equally useful for PVE, it's just that PvP due to its competitive nature usually goes first. If PVE would have similar competitive elements I think you'd see it at similar rates there. (First to 1000 elves wins a prize...)

    Then I can think of plenty of different types of script aids. Lots of which would not work with random dealt cards.

    Next since consumables are part of the deck system it doesn't matter what specifically UO players used to script successfully, your comment that people scripted attack combos proves this. The point is valid regardless if it is heals, consumables or attacks. It's easier to script using the locked deck than it is scripting for random deck.
    Me I don't know diddly about scripting in UO and would think that it wouldn't matter in context??? I'm thinking about the usual scripting crowd in other 3d MMOs. My personal preference is that I don't use scripts since I value the challenge. I will however use hot key binding and sometimes gamer mouses for improved performance. But usually I can't be bothered.
     
  7. baronandy

    baronandy Avatar

    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    138
    Trophy Points:
    43


    kinda agree the system of precasting a spell /hotbar macro system was awesome in ultima all the spells was great.

    but what i totally not like that the skills are no skillshots in most cases.
    i think you should be forced to aim at a target, or make it like in smite. a game not using skillshots is boring
     
  8. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    The reason I addressed it (the only reason) is because it seems to be one of the main reasons people are in favour of a random system. My opinion is that the reasoning behind it is very floored especially when the current system can equally be as button bashing as any standard mmo.
     
  9. Brass Knuckles

    Brass Knuckles Avatar

    Messages:
    3,958
    Likes Received:
    7,707
    Trophy Points:
    153
    It does take away from what's going on on screen a bit, I'll give u that. I also miss the idea where fizzle chance is based on your skill. If your a grand master spell caster I don't think you should fizzle a fifire ball. Now wearing plate is a different story ofcource.
     
    Bodhbh Dearg likes this.
  10. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male

    Because of lag, I find that my combat logs often look like this...

    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is out of range...
    Drocis Fondorlatos takes 76 critical damage from Idiot_That_Just_Stepped_Completely_Through_His_Body, turned, and stabbed him at point blank range with a polearm!
    Drocis Fondorlatos attempts to use Thrust but is now dead.

    The button mashing for me has gone up, not down.
     
  11. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England

    Very very true... I have similar issues over lag, I see other players skipping on my screen and hitting me from an unreachable distance.

    I'm not going to pretend I know the cause of the lag or how it can be fixed........all I hope is that is addressed as a priority.......I know not everyone cares about PvP but for those who do, this kind of issue is a turn off.
     
    Bow Vale likes this.
  12. Keira OFaolain

    Keira OFaolain Avatar

    Messages:
    1,024
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Vengeance
    I think the deck system while is different is alright i would like to bind skills to the f keys as well as the numbed, what i find i hate is the wasd movment while chasing a mage or acher And trying to hit my combate key And use my mouse to keep them in sight. Would love for my mouse to have complete control of my character.
     
  13. King Dane

    King Dane Avatar

    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Let's look at scripting PvP in UO:

    Player 1 presses Hotkey 1: Explosion-Flamestrike combo script begins..
    Player 2 presses Hotkey 1: Magic arrow is cast, interrupting the explosion
    Player 1 begins casting Flamestrike, but fizzles because his script can't acclimate to being interrupted.

    The more complicated the script, the worse the problem becomes. In UO, there was no reason not to cast each spell manually.

    Scripting didn't work in UO PvP. Envy has the gist of it. The closest things to scripting that worked in UO were healing macros (bandages, not magic) for post-AoS dexxers and warriors, and even that was a crutch that did more harm than good in high-level PvP.
     
    Bow Vale and Duke Invidia (Envy) like this.
  14. Duke Death-Knell

    Duke Death-Knell Avatar

    Messages:
    1,751
    Likes Received:
    1,825
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia PA area
    Not a a fan of the card system either. I understand RG wants to do something different, which is great! But the random, desperate nature of card dealing is just to stressful for me *G*, kidding. But seriously, I hate to waste points on focus just to lock a few cards into place not to mention the added focus cost but the random nature of cards being dealt and slugs removes the strategy and fun for me. I get kind of ticked dieing because the correct skill or sequence of skills did not pop into my hand.
    I hear people talk about PVE not being challenging, and if you constantly go after weaker foes it is not challenging, this system just reinforces that because it's difficult to go after a challenging opponent when you have no idea when a needed skill is "going to pop in your head".

    It's the equivalent of a guy who knows how to weld and drive a truck sitting behind a steering wheel waiting for his welding skills to pass so his truck driving skills start to pop.
     
    Shadoweaver likes this.
  15. Spoon

    Spoon Avatar

    Messages:
    8,403
    Likes Received:
    23,554
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Agreed.
    In R11 they added the QE spin to the WASD keys, it made it a bit better but didn't solve the issue.
    I've won at least a couple of duels by using a lot of QW and WE to keep track of opponents.
     
    Akiera likes this.
  16. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,641
    Likes Received:
    12,961
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I can't see the card system being reverted now......and as I said before I think it's more interesting than the standard WoW based system. Sadly I don't think a UO based system work simply due to the logistics of controls.

    What I would like to see is an improvement on the current system.

    - Increase the number of slots for glyphs from 9 to at least 12 (would actually like more).
    - Remove consumables out of the deck system.
    - Expand skill trees to include options that would impose more negative stats on the enemy (for every positive stat effect their should be a counter).
    - Reduce the cooldown on actions/spells and have them more mana/focus intensive instead.
    - Make armour have a greater effects on rates of health/focus regeneration.
    - Have a serious look at the combo spells on how they can be combined. I would much rather see a system where if you start to cast one and during the casting time you cast the other then it will do the combo (the current system of messing around with glyphs is awful).

    I just feel combat needs to be more fluid than it currently is.
     
    monxter, Arianna and majoria70 like this.
  17. Ultima Codex

    Ultima Codex Avatar

    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    1,273
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Edmonton, AB, Canada
    I come at this from the single-player perspective, and...I think that's another part of the problem. The combat system seems to work in a very MMO-friendly way, and that's all well and good for the portion of the game's audience (which may or may not be the majority; I genuinely do not know) who are primarily looking forward to its multiplayer experience.

    I keep mentioning Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, but there's a reason for it: this too was a game that for the most part was architected like an MMO. The sprawling world design, the quest structure, the housing and crafting systems...none of these would have seemed out of place in an MMO. But then there was the combat: fierce, kinetic, and tactical. It was, stylistically, at odds with the rest of the game, this oasis of chaos and unpredictability in the midst of an otherwise very deliberate, very orderly game and world.

    And it worked marvelously. It wasn't combat as a progression mechanic, it wasn't combat for the sake of combat...it was the glue of the game. And playing Reckoning is...you have these drawn-out stories that invite you deeper into their lore, and these wide open spaces that are just peppered with beauty and intrigue, and overall you get the feeling that you've somehow wandered into a really good "single-player MMO" (if you can imagine such a thing). And the combat is there...almost as punctuation; moments of wild fury in the midst of a well-paced narrative and a long stroll through the world.

    Approaching SotA from the single-player perspective...kind of feels like the same sort of "single-player MMO" experience, as I suppose it should. Except that rather than being able to punctuate its gradualness and deliberate pacing with a really great combat mechanic, there's the card combat system which...again, probably feels much more friendly to those who are looking for the MMO experience, but which just feels like a plodding bore in a single-player context.

    Eh, maybe that's true. But it's also true that what works in a multiplayer context doesn't always work in a single-player context, and vice-versa. And combat is often a very significant example of this. Had Reckoning been a full-on MMO, it couldn't have had the combat system that it did...but because it has the combat system that it does, it works marvelously as a single-player game, even though most of the game's design is more MMO-like, slower-paced and more deliberate. Indeed, we could even perhaps say that there is not "only one way to do anything" where combat in SotA is concerned; the game should ideally approach combat differently in its multiplayer and single-player components.

    But it's unlikely that it will, because developing two combat systems in parallel is not something to be done on a shoestring budget.
     
  18. Gabriel Nightshadow

    Gabriel Nightshadow Avatar

    Messages:
    4,466
    Likes Received:
    9,297
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male

    Yeah, I experienced lag while fighting elves in Deep Ravenswood forest. Last night, I was firing arrows at melee Elf fighters who were quite some distance away. Normally, they would run up to me and then engage in melee combat, but last night I noticed that often they would just suddenly disappear and then instantly reappear at point blank distance :eek: and start wailing on me! Hmm...that was an unpleasant surprise :(
     
  19. Raven Swiftbow

    Raven Swiftbow Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    2,327
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Louisiana
    I can live with the wasd movement (now that I have it mapped onto my Nostromo), but sometimes I wish there was an option to "lock" the camera in a certain position.

    I move in the game using 'mouse-walking' - i.e., I place the camera where I want it behind and a little above my head, hold down the right mouse key, hit "W", and then use the trackball to control where the camera points and, ergo, where I move to. And this works fine, generally speaking. But once I go into combat, particularly with running targets such as the mages or in the challenge dungeon, keeping my camera in the right location is a pain. Interestingly, though, it makes the situation *feel* more "real" because of the urgency to get the camera in the right spot. That being said, I wish it were a little easier to control.
     
  20. Seth Ruin

    Seth Ruin Avatar

    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    106
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I had my reservations about the deck system, but I think I've actually grown to like it. Combat has a bit more complexity to it than in other MMOs where you always just hit the same keys in the same order.

    As far as the lag/combat range, I'd really love for an option to "keep player in range." i.e., if you're melee and they run away, auto-follow them. If you're ranged and they come closer, auto-retreat. I realize that'd remove some of the thinking and skill in combat, so I think if you keep the pathfinding algorithm very naive (possibly limit it to just "walk toward opponent (until in range)" or "walk away from opponent (if current distance < minimum distance)" and NO actual pathfinding/obstacle avoidance), it would limit its utility. For example, if you toggle "keep in range" as a ranged user, it would be easy for your opponent to corner you if you're not paying attention.
     
    Moonshadow likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.