Thoughts about Stretch Goals

Discussion in 'Archived Topics' started by Kheldras, Jun 27, 2014.

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  1. Kraxtor

    Kraxtor Avatar

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    I very much enjoy this discussion, particularly the contrasting viewpoints. Debate and Diversity combined frequently yield Strength of product. I have faith this will help make a stronger game.

    I also appreciate the explanations as I now have a better understanding of these stretch goals and how they are to work. I may well have approached this from a bit of a misunderstanding initially.

    Regretfully, I will not be contributing to the stretch goals. I would rather spend my money on a product I know I will get (assuming an eventual successful release, of course) rather than something I may or may not get. I would love to see usable mounts and boats in game, but currently they are house decorations and non-combat pets with the promise of more, maybe. Depending on release schedule goal achievement percentage, my next $100 will be used to get me to Explorer so I can get my cloth map. After that, the next $100 will get me to Ancestor for that rent free Row lot. Things I am very likely to receive.

    These are both investments, but one is much safer than the other. I want to invest in and support game development because the reward from that investment will likely be a wonderful, fun game, that my wallet and I had a small hand in helping with. The risk/reward ratio for stretch goals is, for me, currently to risky. I'll move forward with the idea that the game will release without mounts or boats, accepting only what is "promised" to go in. And with that, now I can focus my attention on other aspects of the game.
     
  2. Batoche1864

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    I'm willing to support these stretch goals as I'm sure that all of these things will be in the game at some point in the future. For me supporting the stretch goals is just a way to speed the development of the features I want.

    So having the ornamental or pet versions of things that will turn into useful items that indicate my support of that usefulness through graphical differences is ok with me. As I previously stated, in my opinion, supporting the stretch goals is about getting features I want into the game in a timely fashion and keeping the control of the game in the hands of gamers and not corporations.

    As always YMMV
     
  3. Kheldras

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    Frankly i dont care havong nonfuntional boats, Mulis and Horses in my inventory. and frankly im am 750$ in the game.. i dont feel like having to spend more to get a horse to ride and a rowing boat... MAYBE.. at worst i paid a lot of money for a useless deco horse...


    The way those goals are implemented just feels wrong, and lets me question if i have spent too much...
     
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  4. Batoche1864

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    How is giving players choice wrong? That's the beauty of this system, these are things that are going to be in the game and you will not have to spend real money to acquire them once they are. SHOULD you choose to support them, you've helped them enter the game sooner and as a reward get a decorative/non-functional version right away and at the time they enter the game your working item will be identifiable as a stretch-goal-pledge reward.

    I don't think you need to question your spending based on choices you have like these pledge goals, if you have however, overspent already then I can see how you may be questioning your past decisions. I hope you find yourself happy with your choices as we move closer to final release and see the value in your current spending.

    Just my thoughts, YMMV.
     
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  5. High Baron Asguard

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    That's what I would really like to know, ARE they still planning to put them into the game eventually anyway in which case the stretch goals are a good investment, not to mention knowing what the in game effects will be
     
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  6. Kheldras

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    Let me rephrase.. would i have known earlier of those goals i might have taken, say, Citizen, or whatever gives a Row lot + spent some money on Boats, Horses and Elves. But my money on the main pledge impacts those goals NOT AT ALL. wich is IMHO wrong.

    I can understand why people are reluctant to spend on them.. im fear of having paid 20$ for a useless horse-shaped garden deco.
     
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  7. Batoche1864

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    With the caveat that the game survives to episode 5 (something I think is a better than even money bet) all of the currently announced stretch goals will be in the game. The current stretch goals being Boats, Mounts, Pack Animals & Elven Player Race.

    I base that off my experience of previously released games by RG. He's committed himself to the small team model and has stated his intention not to sell the rights to this IP to corporate interests. The dev team have stated they fully intend to have all these things at some episode of the game, the stretch goals are to allow them to gauge player interest and allow items that meet their stretch goals to be bumped up in the schedule through allowing Portalarium to add resources to complete these goals as opposed to take resources from other things in the development schedule.

    Your pledge does actually affect these things, they are things in the current development schedule but just not very high in that list because they are development issues that are on the "nice to have" as opposed to the "crucial for game function" list.

    Portalarium is not taking the risk of losing control by bringing in outside corporate investment. They are committed to a small team development process that affects how rapidly they can develop items that are needed to allow the game to be published, as opposed to just wanted . The stretch goals were added because of player demand for these items and as such don't change whether or not we get the in-game functionality for these items but just how quickly Portalarium can devote development resources to these items. So this to my mind is about choice.

    I have greater faith in RG and the devoted gamers on his team to not be greedy money grubbers and state realistic requirements for what is needed than any corporation that would be willing to invest in a game such as SotA.

    Of course these are just my opinions and I give the reasons I have those opinions but as always YMMV.
     
  8. Morgnes

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    For me the release of the strech goals already screems: greed.
    Why? Fairly simple, in my eyes there is a plan to releasing strech goal after strech goal over the course of a couple week and it targets people how are not fully informed, who don't read all the mails:

    You see the stech goal store going online and think: Yes, I like that; and you invest.
    A week later the next goal pops up, you like it even more. Now, what do you do? Invest again? Sulk because you think if I had know I would have invested here?
    That's a simple and effective way to get people, who would normally only support one goal, to support two or even more goals.

    I mean ask yourself, why not a simultaneous release? Don't tell me the pictures wheren't done yet. Or this way it was less confusing for the customers.....
     
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  9. Batoche1864

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    There won't be much chance of any recourse if they don't, American consumer protection laws have been put through the wringer by guys like **** Cheney (catch the documentary "Hot Coffee" to see some of the issues or "Terms and Conditions May Apply"), and the base Kickstarter Disclaimers and any others you've unwittingly agreed to through the pledge process and asst. EULA & Terms of Use, add the fact that if they don't make it to Ep. 5 the strong likelihood that Portalarium doesn't exist make your legal options at that point pretty mute. I'm here because I'm excited and positive about the release of this game and so try to express that in my opinions.


    I actually did see a list of stretch goals they were thinking about and not all of those on that list are currently available, the stated reasons they haven't made the cut are they have technical issues that Portalarium doesn't want to take the time to resolve right now or there not currently being enough interest in those specific items. I have no reasons to doubt Portalarium of those reasons, so while you want to express the opinion that there is some evil intent I'm willing to take a more positive outlook. If conditions change or interest rises I don't have issues with the devs adding those to the list at some later date.

    I know there is a strong move to castigate and deride all corporate statements but do you really think that RG and the 30 or so folks at Portalarium are on the same level as EA, Microsoft (and their Xbox 360 release) or Google? I don't but YMMV.


    As to the schedule the goals were released I guess by not being in a rush to make a decision about things that far down the road I've done myself a favour. I think it helps that from my limited involvement in the software industry I look at the amounts they want and the work that needs to go into it and see a reasonable request and not some greedy overshoot just to rake in the money.

    I know one guy here posted the number of hours of dev time that these goals should purchase based on a development cost/hour that assumed zero overhead and wages that weren't even minimum wage here in Canada, so it was laughable in its misunderstanding of the facts. In fact I have a bigger issue with Stretch Goals that are unrealistically low and promise more than the goal can actually achieve. Issues like that can kill entire projects as the creators struggle to find a way to deliver all that they promised and then wind up delivering none.

    So there's where our differences of opinion lay. I'm ok that you guys have your's, even if the language you use to express them can be described and doom and gloom at best, I'm hoping you show others the same courtesy.

    Just my thoughts and as always YMMV.
     
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  10. Violation Clauth

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    Not want... I'm happy to NOT support classes in this game (a race with a benefit to specific skills takes our classless game to classes) and if they forced me to donate to that I wouldn't put another penny in... as it stand I haven't not given them money in a 60-day window for the last year... love this new method of letting us pick how we want the game made and hoping that others will not support the things we don't support as well. I just wish they'd put an expiration on the goals in clear bold letters so we knew for sure it wouldn't happen.

    That being said if a dev reads this all you have to do to make me like elves is make them role play related... no special perks/benefits/skills/etc. I know that's off topic but I'll take every chance I can get to say that I don't want another rpg game with racials and factions... it's been done to death please let it die.
     
  11. Batoche1864

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    I know the devs have posted that this is the only way these things make it into the game during episode one, I know the devs have stated in interviews that the stretch goals are things they want to put into the game as quick as the the development schedule allows them in future episodes and from taking a quick look at the stretch goal page I see any questions about the expiry dates is answered by this just above the first stretch goal:

    (NOTE: Stretch goal items cannot be turned into Add-On Store Credit unless the stretch goal is not met by launch date.)

    So if the stretch goals aren't met in time for episode one you have the option to turn in the non-functional items for other functional items from the add-on store. The ability to convert the stretch goal pledges into add-on store credit at the release of episode one pretty much puts a pin in any of the 'greedy, greedy' posts in this thread as well.

    I have a sneaky susspicion that at or near the release of episode one Portalarium will announce which of the stretch goals aren't intended for release 2 and leave those ones open for pledges so they can be bumped from release 3 forward into a release 2 feature and then again offer the add-on conversion for any of the items that don't make that goal.

    I can't think of any other company that makes those kinds of promises in regards to software features.
     
  12. High Baron Asguard

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    Not really, if that was true they would offer a full refund
     
  13. Karrolanth

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    Is it possible to provide a link to this statement, please? As I mentioned in my earlier post I'd thought similar things myself, until I was pointed at a public comment from one of the team that said they had "never" intended for horses to be in the game. Not 'not in Episode 1' - the game.

    There seems to be so much confusion over these goals that it would be nice to get some official confirmation of which (if any) they intend to add in at some future time regardless, and which will only be included if the goal is met. Then we would all know which goals we could help to achieve faster, and which we might never see at all unless we pony up.
     
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  14. Morgnes

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    I'm actually talking about those four strech goals that are available right now, they where released with what, a week between each? What is the reason for that? For me there is no positive explanation. But in all fairness I have to say, I don't like the entire reward system.Fact is, this is the fifth game I'm backing so far, but it is the first MMO kind of game. I can (barely) live with the pledges and the advantages they offer. But the add-on store and the strech goals; it just feels wrong, it feels like an f2p game with a cash shop. Other games have no usable in-game items in their pledges, but the funding worked absolutely fine. But with the MMO aspect, and the current reward system you are able to buy an easy start, and many people want it, and are willing to pay for it. And in reality, I don't like the entirety of that concept.

    I could live with only the pledges and their benefits, or only the add-on store, or only the strech goals... but all together, no way that I can support that any further. Like I said, it feels wrong.
     
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  15. Isaiah

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    STRETCH GOAL POSTPONEMENT PLAN...

    This might be a bit controversial, and I would have been upset about it before I thought about it too. We reached a stretch goal at $2million that really looks cool. I haven't spoken directly to the devs about this, but I think as community dev+ people we might be able to come up with something that benifits the game, and saves Portalarium the "HeartAche" of having to deal with disappointed community members.

    Let's take a look why:

    $2M: PLAYERS TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!
    • CASTLES & KEEPS EFFECTIVELY A NEW “TOWN TYPE”, WHERE THE STRUCTURE IS OWNABLE BY PLAYERS OR GUILDS.
    • GUILDS CAN DECLARE WAR AGAINST OTHER GUILDS.
    • GUILDS CAN DECLARE AS FULL TIME PVP.
    • GUILDS CAN EARN A GUILD HOUSE AND A GUILD BANK.
    • GUILD TABBARD/SHIELD/FLAGS USEABLE BY ALL MEMBERS.
    • MINIMUM OF 5 CASTLE TYPES ADDED TO THE GAME.
    • CASTLE MERCHANTS WITH UNIQUE MERCHANDISE.
    • CASTLE DEFENSE SCENARIOS FOR MOST CASTLES WHICH CAN BE PLAYED OFFLINE AS WELL AS ONLINE.

    This really looks cool. In fact some of us have talked about if we should buy a player owned town or wait for one of these guild castles as a new "town type" ownable by players or guilds. I really like the castle thingy. Except I wonder do I have realistic expectations about what that Guild Castle thingy does, and how it works???

    That brings me to me is the castle defense scenarios part. Now many people might have interpreted that as meaning the castles and keeps owned by the guilds. The rest of the stretch goals all seem to infer that because it's all guild based stuff. Now if Portalarium comes along saying "Oh shucks, hey we always thought that last stretch goal meant NPC Castle Defense Scenerios only..." there will be a few people not so happy in the community... again. This isn't the first time we've had stretch goals be misinterpreted by most of the community. SHOULD WE GET ANGRY OR LET IT GO... IN ADVANCE!

    *************************

    There's another issue that comes up. While we all know we raised over $2Million during kickstarter. Part of that money was raised on the Portalarium website. This means technically they were just under $2MIllion on the actual kickstarter site and don't have to honor that stretch goal as a kickstarter reward!!!

    DON'T GET FURIOUS this is coming from me not Portalarium.

    *************************

    So rather than let this play its course, and we go through another round of HELL on the forums what do you all say we as a Dev+ community (and later the rest of the community) ... we could just say build the damn game and give the Portalarium team a grace period on the stretch goals.

    *********************************
    Most of those stretch goals are going to be met. They already talked about guild wars, and flagging for PvP.
    My concerns here are mainly these:
    • CASTLES & KEEPS EFFECTIVELY A NEW “TOWN TYPE”, WHERE THE STRUCTURE IS OWNABLE BY PLAYERS OR GUILDS.
    • GUILD TABBARD/SHIELD/FLAGS USEABLE BY ALL MEMBERS.
    • CASTLE DEFENSE SCENERIOS FOR MOST CASTLES WHICH CAN BE PLAYED OFFLINE AS WELL AS ONLINE.
    these are possible problems, and I think we as a community can actually make a GOOD GROUP DECISION for once and not complain, but rather lets be proactive in giving them an allowance to continue building the key game components and make the core game better. (If we don't do this, the likely result will be more negative community backlash.)


    This does not have to be only about this stretch goal either. There may be other promises that phrases like "don't lawyer me bro" just doesn't cut it. It isn't unreasonable to think that Portalarium made some promises that might not be reasonable for us to expect.

    WE HAVE THE CHOICE NOW TO EITHER HARASS THEM ABOUT STUFF THAT OVER COMPLICATES THE DEVELOPMENT, OR WE CAN CHOOSE NOW TO NOT GET PISSED, AND ACTUALLY BE PROACTIVE IN TELLING THEM LET'S MAKE THE CORE FEATURES A PRIORITY, AND LET THE STRETCH GOALS ROLL IN AS TIME PERMITS (AFTER RELEASE IF NEED BE).

    I honestly believe that it is ok not to get upset if they over extended themselves in their promises. We get a better return on our pledge if we don't make things worse by nitpicking, but making a decision to let things fall as they may. If we do that then maybe we can in fact get castle defense scenarios that are much better, and even get stuff we never expected from them.

    ANYBODY WANT TO HELP DEVELOP THIS GAME? THEN I PROPOSE WE STIR PEOPLE UP TO GIVING A GRACE PERIOD ON THE STRETCH GOALS ACROSS THE BOARD.
     
  16. PrimeRib

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    My problem is this:
    You can build movement, camera, and targeting without combat. But you're likely to have to redo everything because these are done at once and, given that they use the same two eyes and hands, there's a lot of overlap.

    And you can build combat without PvP. But you're likely going to have to redo everything. Because PvP immediately forces you to deal with every skill possibly being countered, interrupted, dodged, etc. You have to deal with cc balance and how lag works.

    And you could build PvP and build the map without thinking through factions, alignment / criminal, or other sorts of alliances and reputations. But again, you'll likely have to redo everything.

    While I fully understand how complex the siegable castles and player owned towns is, I basically think without that anchor, PvP is likely wrong, factions are likely wrong, and the same with guilds, crafting, etc.

    As a general rule, most games with have a PvE gear treadmill as an endgame, a PvP seesaw as an end game, or some elements of both. Things like the crafting economy and small scale PvE (grinding, gathering) are driven off of ambitious guilds trying to move big things. And this is one of those big things.
     
  17. Isaiah

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    they can still build the components with the stretch goals in mind. However the due date, or priority of these extra goals can be relaxed so that they get rolled out after opening day. So they can build the game with all of these goals AND MORE in mind, but WE can relax on them and choose to focus on core design.

    who knows we might even get a few cool shockers that we didn't expect to make it in.
     
  18. Beaumaris

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    @Kheldras - I was thinking the same thing. Having moved stretch goals into a line separate from pledges creates competing interests for players with a budget. Do I work towards the next level of home, or support elves in the game? It creates tough choices. Not sure what the answer is.
     
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  19. Isaiah

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    It would be nice to have these stretch goals, and also have the ones previously pledged for too. I'm all for the new stretch goals, and the old ones.

    However let's relax on the wording, the timing, and the expectations. Let's not nitpic on small issues.
     
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  20. Johnny Black

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    I was driving home last night and I stopped to buy gas/a lottery ticket; I thought to myself, what if SoTA had a lottery system during the Pre-Release stage of the game. I was thinking that this could be an interesting way to generate some revenue in the game.

    For example, you spend a dollar for a ticket, you are entered in a chance to have yourself bumped up to the next pledge level. You can basically switch out whatever prize you'd like as the reward. This could be a couple times a month, maybe more. This could be along with stretch-goals and such.

    I haven't hashed the idea out to well but let me know what you all think!
     
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