Thoughts on Lost Whiteguard Silver Mine

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Senjut, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    this gives the opportunity for a virtue choice too: in mines where there are fauns, they're the ones actually mining and so the ones likely to drop ore, not the overseers.
     
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  2. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Well if that creature or mini boss came perhaps after mining for a while and appeared randomly and he/she dropped ore too, but it sounds like you want an adventuring area and this is a mine. True it can have both aspects but mostly it needs to have ore. Also another way to give some more satisfying improvements is to make elementals mineable well in mines that have them that is as most games do.
     
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  3. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say I want the devs to make all the mines adventure scene mines like they did to Verdantis. I would prefer a great spot for each type. We already have great spots for iron (Spectral) and copper/gold (Graff) so Im hoping they don't remove the silver/gold spot (Elysium). There should be at least one really good mining spot for each type. And since all mines are instanced we really don't need more than one for each.

    I think they need to start them all off with very low ore counts and finish all the uncloning first. Then gather metrics and increase the ore as needed. Otherwise I think the market will get flooded with ore.
     
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  4. Lifedragn

    Lifedragn Avatar

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    That could be an interesting thing among the Satyr, yes. Instead of the 50%, the faun should have a higher than average chance to drop an ore, almost guaranteed. The overseers then might have a very rare chance of having a whole gem. They'll grab good stuff when it comes up, but leave the lesser stuff to the slaves. The faun and virtue links are kind of rough right now though. Any extra excuse to kill them makes the virtue angle almost impossible to respect. Leaving faun alive is almost suicidal as they'll join with respawns. I stopped letting them go after returning to a room to find four of them with a satyr fighter and being utterly helpless for all the confusions, stuns, and heals they were throwing around. They need a way to really 'free' them after defeating an overseer so it doesn't just bit you later.
     
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  5. Elwyn

    Elwyn Avatar

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    Actually, my gripe is with the coal nodes, and has been since the since rebuilt North Midmaer Way. Only one coal per mining from coal nodes. That isn't much, considering how much they get used. It's fun the first couple of times as a novelty, but it's just not worth the time to bother with coal nodes when they only drop one per harvest. Better to ignore them completely and buy coal from an NPC. I think they should have numbers more like mandrake. Coal nodes just haven't been visible enough yet for anyone to care.

    I think the ore distribution in all three new mines is a lot better than Serpent's Spine, and it's much easier to keep low-level monsters down in trade for not getting 500pxp per ore. Okay, maybe there's another minor gripe I have, that there's only one iron to two copper mines. I already had an easier time getting copper, for whatever reason. Just put iron on the upper side of the imbalance next time you guys make new mine scenes.

    The problem is that it's hard to yield less than one ore, which is all you get unless you have meticulous up, and that has its own problems.

    Ouch. Courage scores game-wide would plummet overnight. Except for the smart people who will just be sure to kill enough satyrs to balance the fauns.
     
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  6. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Ok well I don't agree a mine should be a mine. Our mining stats should determine how much mine we can get out of that ore and harvests. Visually a mine should look like a mine. This one does not, except if it is a mine that is mined out and why go there? What will bring people there after their levels are up? shouldn't every scene have something bringing people to them ? Why are we worrying so much about people taking their own time to mine? As I said the figures will balance out with more people at release. If that is all they do in a game I say let them. I plan to do everything in this game. So sometimes if I have the cash I will buy ore, other times I will mine it as I do now. I don't agree with ore limits verses the demand.
     
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  7. Adam Crow

    Adam Crow Avatar

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    Nothing, people don't go to scenes once they out level them.
    Adding people to the game will only increase problems with macroing and botting if the nodes are too close together with only a few mobs defending them. I think the team is too small to stop all the instances of this occurring if the zones are too easy to mine.

    I just don't want to see a bunch more botters and macroers show up and destroy the economy. I'm assuming that's why the devs have spread out the nodes so much in these new mines. They can always add more nodes down the road if the zones aren't being used.

    Really my whole point though was that I think they should start small and then add more nodes as needed. Otherwise it will probably screw up the economy. I really want fun and efficient mines as well, I mine all the time!
     
  8. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

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    Yes, yes and yes. Great feedback!
     
  9. idaniod

    idaniod Avatar

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    I'm with you on this... there should be at least 1 high tier mine where you get the ore at a good pace... and then if they had diminishing returns for the lower tier mines it makes sense to me...

    To me it makes sense that these mines would have some adventuring though... not just ore-a-plenty.. after all.. we aren't the only ones who want the ore! :)
     
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  10. Sannio

    Sannio Lead Quest and Level Designer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    That's an interesting idea. I'll bring it up at the office. If we do increase the ore quantity in that scene, maybe we'll consider your idea as well.
     
  11. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    Not a bad idea. But I hope you guys are being very cautious about mine production.

    There are no doubt a lot of people that only mine for the RMT profit. They don't want challenging mines, they want maximum efficiency. So often there are opinions entirely on this reality, resulting in feedback that seems to always be able making it easier and more profitable to mine. Or to put it another way, why go to the hard mines if you can efficiently pull ore out of the newbie mines?

    Please be extra careful, that's all I'm trying to say here. :)
     
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  12. redfish

    redfish Avatar

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    Hey Sannio...

    My suggestion from a while back was to diversify supply bundles based on role-playing flavor so you would have things like this,

    Miner's bundle - chance of ores, gems, and mining tools (found on kobold, satyr miners)
    Food bundle - chance of different food rations - (found on all humanoids)
    Herb bundle - chance of healing reagents and potions - (found on elf healers)
    Reagent bundle - chance of variety of reagents - (found on mages)
    Cannibal's bundle - chance of "special" types of food - (found on Grannus wildmen)
    ...etc.

    My opinion is this would work much better than just finding a bunch of loose ores on a mob you kill.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  13. Lifedragn

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    I would think RMT folks would want mining to be more difficult, as higher barriers to the task are more likely to drive people to just purchase the ore? I actually rarely think of RMT as I avoid it like the plague. My rare few dollars I'm able to spend on the game I favor going straight to the devs. As someone who never buys (I need the craft XP of gathering) or sells (RMT never, IGG not as yet) ore in the game, I'd much rather avoid taking RMT folks into account. It is more important to balance around what makes the game enjoyable for players. If RMT can gain from it, whatever. If their market dries up because more people return to mining, then no tears lost from me.

    What I do know is that trying to raise Masterworking or Enchanting in a natural play fashion is practically impossible. Natural play meaning your producer XP pool has not been farmed extremely high to game the skill gain system, I expect most natural crafters would have under 50k XP most of the time. If you have less than a million producer xp, the amount of silver/gold you need to gain levels in those skills is astronomical. Even then, it is pretty high.

    What I do know is that it is extremely frustrating to have ore be more difficult to acquire after a mine de-clone because of the insane amounts of ore needed to progress your skill. I am fortunately not in a rush myself, as I said, I need the craft XP anyways. But I can feel the frustration of fellow miners.
     
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  14. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    1. Regardless of who uses RMT and who doesn't, it impacts the economy (just like it does in any game where players can trade with other players - this has nothing to do with it it's allowed or not allowed). So ignoring it is not an option that will result in having a good economy.
    2. The idea that "whatever makes the game enjoyable for players" is somehow good for the economy is not supported by facts. The reason the masterwork and enchanting skills are difficult to level is by design. The problem joe average player has is actually (I would argue) the fact that they're trying to do everything themselves instead of openly trading on the open market. This is partially a result of low player population, and some game design issues that make trading something relatively easy to get like "animal hides" for ore a ridiculous proposition because the ore is so much more valuable (useful) in this system. But the players lack of imagination does play a significant role in the problem. Players want to be able to go out and mine all day by themselves and then translate that into being the best crafter in the game where they can make all their own stuff and never interact with another player. That's simply not what we're trying to do here. (in this online world)
    3. Yes, if you have less than a million producer XP you're going to need a lot more ore to level masterwork and enchanting. That's the same for every player. The point of this is to make it hard. Why would we want to make it so hard? Because otherwise everyone will master these skills and make stuff for themselves. How in the world would anyone sell stuff to other players if everyone could just do it themselves?
     
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  15. redfish

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    By the way, the more readily available ore, the more incentive devs have to raise crafting requirements. And the less readily available it is, the more incentives devs have to lower crafting requirements. As for earning value, you want players to be able to earn gold off of mining, the goal isn't necessarily RMT, but to pay their taxes, for instance. More ore means their ores are worth less and makes it harder to earn a living. Giving players what they want sometimes just makes the game more grindy (makes it worse).

    So, I think the problem needs to be looked at multidimensionally.
     
  16. Lifedragn

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    1. I would argue that ore is overpriced at the moment. Many people are pricing it compared to how much money could be farmed in the amount of time it takes to acquire said amount of ore. Given adventurers are coin faucets and crafters are coin sinks and given that adventurers are the ones skilled enough to harvest the ore, the crafter is getting squeezed from both sides.

    2. The economy should be supporting the enjoyment of play. Not the other way around. I agree that everybody doing things themselves is harmful to the economy to the point that the economy has become detrimental to the enjoyment of play. I am ONLY working on tailoring masterworking. Not trying to do everything. 100 Silver ore is around 6K if you can actually find it (another reason I dislike RMT is that it kills in game economy). 100 silver is 5 Masterworking attempts. Just starting out raising the skill, that is more failures than successes. Even if every attempt does succeed, that is a base cost of 1.2K gold per attempt. Add in cost of producing the base item and smelting the ore and your are easily looking at 1.5K gold in cost for a +2/+3 item. Add back in the failure rate and even those base items are costing 3K-4.5K in raw materials. And a dedicated craftsman has no real way to earn that back outside of adventuring themselves.

    3. The problem is that it is the same for every player. The fastest way to Producer XP is to Gather. Meaning the best way to raise your Tailoring Masterwork skill is to gather your own ore and not buy it. Buying it not only slows how fast you can gain producer XP, it also takes away valuable coin needed for fuels, tools, other raw resources, and any lot tax one might have for their shop. The problem is not about it being hard. The problem is that it is currently counter-productive to buy your own raw resources. The market is not strong enough to earn a living through crafting. There are very few things you can even grind out and sell to NPCs for profit because crafting was designed to be a coin sink in the economy.

    In Summary: Starting out, I cannot afford to buy ore through crafting. No player market for starter items. Items sold to NPC are either at a loss or very minimal profit. So I have to adventure for coin. Oh hey, I am adventuring and there is some ore. I may as well harvest it while I am here. Oh hey, harvesting my own ore will help me advance my craft skills faster and I can keep the money I earn for other purposes.

    A new idea: Buying ore isn't a way to help the economy, it is a way to be inefficient because the game design around crafting is broken. You want crafters buying ore from adventurers? Give the crafters their own crafting coin faucets (These should be small and grindy, the big coin should come from selling to players but provides at least a way to get started/survive droughts) so they can afford to buy materials and move Gathering Skills to the Adventure XP pool instead of Producer XP pool. Boost the Refining XP returns a bit (20 to maybe 100) to account for the lost method of producer XP. Suddenly, adventurers will also craft less as their skill gain from producing drops from lack of gathering XP. Now if they want to produce, they need to spend idle time waiting on the smelter or tanning tables to gain skill. Suddenly, saving up a million XP to craft with is near impossible meaning that the time return for adventurers to pursue a craft is much more difficult. Raising demand for items crafted by other people. Also, going out and harvesting your own ore is suddenly not advancing your carpentry. If you want to, that is time you could have spent refining and crafting.
     
  17. Senjut

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    Anyone see a ladder? :)
     
  18. majoria70

    majoria70 Avatar

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    Well I understand people worry as you do but mining should be based on skill level to determine how much ore someone gets and of course higher skill levels that mine a lower level mine would in that case get more ore out of it. The thing is in being overly cautious to balance out the not fun part of this game chases people away. There has to be something for everyone since this is that kind of game.

    I don't agree to us not having enough ore to satisfy those who just worry about the economy. Must we never have fun in this game? I know that is dramatic but there really is some truth to it. Miners want to mine and get ore and if this game doesn't allow it, they will go some place else that does. And yes balance it somewhat, but do not be overly stingy with it or the game suffers for it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
  19. amarious

    amarious Avatar

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    @Sannio Can we get a high tier mine in a pvp zone? People say that they want an exciting mining experience, from my experience as a miner in Ultima Online (for 13 years) who only minned in areas that people could steal from me and kill me, that was exciting.

    I had thieves come and steal my ingots, special pick axes and tools, gems, and I had murderers chase me down, kill me and my pack animal and take everything I had. I then learned how to be tricky, to kill the thieves and out maneuver the murderers, I soon became a murderer myself, killing other miners to protect my area.

    Miners now a days have it easy, don't get me wrong, I love to mine in SotA as the repetitive actions are relaxing to me and not having to look over my shoulder every few minutes is a nice touch but having to defend an area I claimed as my own was a ton of fun too.
     
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  20. idaniod

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    I think you hit the nail on the head right there.... we have lower tier mines, higher mines.. now we need a good PVP mine that puts out more ore then the lower levels... perfect risk/reward!


    Kudos amarious!
     
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