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Town sieges right at the beginning are way too hard

Discussion in 'Release 38 Feedback Forum' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Feb 14, 2017.

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  1. LiquidSky

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    Your quest (should you choose to accept it) is to find a story in SOTA.
     
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  2. MindBlast

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    Since the game have SP Offline mode too, why that (consequences etc.) wouldn't be possible, in that mode?
     
  3. Lars vonDrachental

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    It is not impossible to have this just in offline mode but it is not intended to have independent games. Basically there is no difference between the modes and that never changed since KS. Just minor changes like companions (to do quests design for groups) or prices for crafted goods (to make a living as you are not able to sell to other Avatars) are or will be changed in the offline mode but nearly everything else is in all modes the same. If something do not work in all modes it will most likely be not a part of SotA…at least as understand.
    But I do not think that (consequences etc.) is just something for the offline part…I am sure if they find an acceptable way for implementation SotA will have it. ;)
     
  4. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I was firing up The Elder Scrolls Online just to do one quest. While walking through the city, people cheered "The hero of Daggerfall!"
    This is satisfying and one of the reasons to do quests in an RPG.
     
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  5. Black Tortoise

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    You may be misinterpreting the term "theme park." Ultima 7, which any Garriot single-player game should try and emulate, is anything but a theme park. A "theme park" game is a guided experience, with decent-to-uber graphics, but little in the way of dynamic interaction or feeling of open world. They typically emphasize player hand-holding (which I am not labeling as "bad", merely "unwanted"), have a narrow range of choices for character development, even fewer final templates, limited in-game items, limited in-game mechanics, a relatively rigid and directed storyline with little choice for deviation at the player's discretion, and less feeling of open world (or lackthereof altogether).

    In fact, the narrative for most "theme park" games follows this same pattern - player is more or less funneled through a digital "choose your own adventure" book (or perhaps even less choice than that), with limited and predictable patterns, and little in the way of perilous, moral-dilemma-based, or otherwise philosophically challenging choice. Most "theme park" games feel like a really fancy interactive storybook, and not like an actual game (which is where the "click to win" term comes from).

    So I was suggesting that guiding the player too much, doing disney-like things such as "the dragon leaves you half dead," or perhaps, funneling a new player through a siege in a hand-holdy way, is more "theme park" feeling. The dragon freaking eats you, and it happens super fast cuz your like level 2. The siege blows you to bits, unitl you actually pay attention to the NPC at the entrance and happen to look to your left and try that route. You dont get out of the smouldering blood river fort until you ask the gatekeeper about the key, and find the key on the corpse. You need to interact with your colorful, dynamic, expressive, and responsive environment to figure out the next step, the escape, or the treasure. You dont find the evil monster in the quest because there was only one path to it, you found it after creeping through catacombs with some vague directions, avoiding traps, unlocking gates, manipulating nondescript levers and gears, and using a spell or two to make an obscure path more clear.

    Im not sure what you call the opposite of a theme park, but Garriot games are typically not theme park games. While I am foremost an online-SotA backer, I too am excited for the single player game, as I still stand by my claim that there hasnt been a better RPG since Ultima 7 (Morrowind came close for me...). I think SotA could take a lot from Ultima 9, which unto itself was more of a prototype experience (which I thoroughly enjoyed several times). In any event,

    Something tells me, @Lord_Darkmoon , that you dont want any kind of theme park game either. Judging by your post, youre usually advocating a much more "Garriot game" experience, with the sort of depth to both the story and game mechanics that I am alluding to. However, I think it will be too easy for the community at large to be vocal about what I am labeling "theme park" elements, instead of, I dont know, "deep story?" elements, and turn the game away from becoming as rich and unique as I'd like. Id also argue that its unhealthy for the longevity of SotA to do anything "theme parky". I saw this happen with the above mentioned blood river intro, when you first had to find a key on a corpse, then talk to the guy at the front gate, then you could use the key on the gate. This went from being a decent intro into "Garriot game" like mechanics, which include some minor puzzles and interactive gears, switches, and levers (note: not rocket science), to nerfing it down because some players couldnt figure it out quickly and said lots of swear words in steam reviews. That event made me pretty paranoid that a (slanted, vocal-minority, non-original-fanbase) portion of the community has the power to yell at the dev team, and halt such deeper iterations. I think the appropriate response to that incident would have been to enrich the diologe and in-game hints and clues as to what should be done, rather than just eliminate the prototype altogether and just let players walk right through.

    So yeah, I think SotA should start training the players to interact with, feel out, and discover the world right from the very start - which includes finding a little ol key, filling a bucket of water, shearing a sheep, I dont know, just things you need to interact with that surprise you that it behaves in a responsive way that fits into the story and world around you. Make the player want to go click on, move, push aside, break, examine, sheer, everything. Its an iterative process, and prototypes will be rugged and primitive. Just always imagine how rich it could be in 2 years of player feedback. I believe this is also an unlearning - players need to unlearn decades of theme-park expectations. Players have been trained by so many games to have a pretty narrow set of expectations about RPGs, and projecting them onto a early access game makes this even more complicated, and will naturally react when those expectations arent met (i.e., "newbies are supposed to be almost invincible and have their hands held!"). Lets unlearn all of that, enrich the mechanics and the NPCs to guide you in a story-immersive way, and instead think of more ways we want the world to respond to our clicks.

    No theme parks pls :). New players walking into siege? Yah theyll probably get exploded.
     
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  6. Black Tortoise

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    If only I had the talent to say so much with so few words ;)
     
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  7. Lord_Darkmoon

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    I don't want hand-holding and of course I love being free in a game. But even in the Ultima games there were consequences and things happened. Clearing the shrines in Ultima 6 led to the shrines being cleared. The Gargoyles didn't reappear suddenly. In Ultima 5 Blackthorn killed one of the partymembers permanently. In Ultima 7 Alagner died and in Serpent Isle the Banes killed the population of the cities.

    In SotA we simply don't have any sense of achievement. Nothing happens during the quests, there are no consequences and our deeds are not recognized.
    A siege in Ultima 7 would have played out very differently than in SotA. There would have been dramatic events surrounding it. In SotA it is gamey. It is there to get EXP with the whole situation having a gamey layout. The left way is not guarded well for those players who are not good enough for the battle yet. The whole scene is just there to keep players occupied. Where is the story in this? The enemy army getting crippled, the commander being vanquished forever or being captured. A cool story surrounding the siege with an exciting and satisfying outcome that has an impact on the world and the overall story?
    This is what I am missing. I don't need to be guided through the story but I want to experience exciting adventures and get a feeling if accomplishing something.
     
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  8. Dorham Isycle

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    Where can i locate this Level information
     
  9. Arya Stoneheart

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    Umuri's SOTA HUD program.
     
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  10. Stundorn

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    Write /stats and search for your chatlog file in your Shroud folder.
     
  11. Numa

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    Have never realized that the MMO genre has degenerate this far. When I first tried WoW many years ago the old RPG school flair was still there. And since I tend to play the old games plus new innovative ones like Transistor and Witcher I've been insulated from the shopping line queue that seems to be in vogue today.

    Part of the problem is that if a game requires millions of subscribers to keep going, the pressure to go down to the lowest common denominator of gameplay experience is intense. Hopefully the niche market SOTA is targetting results in a smaller but loyal fan base that will still allow an atmosphere of innovation and risk taking.
     
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