Trammel Ruined UO

Discussion in 'The Kingdoms of Old' started by rschultzy80, Apr 16, 2013.

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  1. rschultzy80

    rschultzy80 Avatar

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    I know this post is going to offend some people out there but that is not the intention of this post. With that being said, am I missing something? All throughout these boards I'm reading over and over again about people not wanting PvP, lobbying to get the devs to focus more on in depth PvE. While I understand Role Playing in an depth virtual world can be a fun and exciting endeavor, the community must realize there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of great non PvP games out there waiting for you to play.

    Unfortunately, this day of age gaming involves farmville and WoW carebears. Being a long time fan of the Ultima series and having been a devoted player of Ultima Online, I think it's egregious how many "Trammel" players are pouring out of the woodwork. Myself and others like me having been waiting for a game worthy of our time since UO implemented Trammel for the children of gaming. The only game to come close since is DAoC (Dark Ages of Camelot).

    I understand this is not designed as a MMO but the single advantage UO had over all it's successors pre Trammel was that the game was set in a dangerous world. Other players could and would kill you and rob you for your gear. Why are so many people in the gaming world afraid of a dangerous realm in which we can play? Why are players so afraid of dying? No one should be running around full time with their best gear. I didn't take my Silver Katana of Vanquishing to go kills skeletons by myself. That would be ignorant and if I lost a great piece of gear that way, you learn to be smarter. You use gear like that when in a group with people you trust. Learn to be responsible, it's a role playing game and dying should have severe consequences.

    Why do players insist time and time again to be coddled and protected? WE, the community, the players, we should be the ones defending our realm. I am just so tired of games being "dumbed-down" for the masses. If you want someone to hold your hand through an entire game, stop wasting Lord British's time and register on facebook.

    I would love to hear feed back on why it is so many gamers are afraid of a challenge. Personally, I'm through with the kiddy games that have been shoved down our throats for the past 15 years.
     
  2. Phredicon

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    "I know this post is going to offend some people out there but that is not the intention of this post. "

    I'll go ahead and highlight the offensive parts. If it wasn't your intent, they shouldn't have been there.

    "While I understand Role Playing in an depth virtual world can be a fun and exciting endeavor, the community must realize there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of great non PvP <i>out there waiting for you to play. </i>

    Unfortunately, this day of age gaming involves <i>farmville and WoW carebears</i>. Being a long time fan of the Ultima series and having been a devoted player of Ultima Online, I think it?s egregious how many ?Trammel? players are pouring out of the woodwork. Myself and others like me having been waiting for a game worthy of our time since UO implemented Trammel for <i>the children of gaming.</i> The only game to come close since is DAoC (Dark Ages of Camelot).

    I understand this is not designed as a MMO but the single advantage UO had over all it?s successors pre Trammel was that the game was set in a dangerous world. Other players could and would kill you and rob you for your gear. Why are so many people in the gaming world <i>afraid</i> of a dangerous realm in which we can play? Why are players so <i>afraid</i> of dying? No one should be running around full time with their best gear. I didn?t take my Silver Katana of Vanquishing to go kills skeletons by myself. That would be ignorant and if I lost a great piece of gear that way, you learn to be <i>smarter.</i> You use gear like that when in a group with people you trust. Learn to be <i>responsible,</i> it?s a role playing game and dying should have severe consequences.

    Why do players insist time and time again to be <i>coddled and protected</i>? WE, the community, the players, we should be the ones defending our realm. I am just so tired of games being <i>?dumbed-down?</i> for the masses. If you want someone to <i>hold your hand through an entire game, stop wasting Lord British?s time and register on facebook.</i>

    I would love to hear feed back on why it is so many gamers are <i>afraid</i> of a challenge. Personally, I?m through with the <i>kiddy games</i> that have been shoved down our throats for the past 15 years."

    This is why many people don't like PvP.
     
  3. rune_74

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    Well I guess one thread with that title wasn't enough;)

    Translation to that post:

    I want the game my way and if you don't like it get out of here.
     
  4. Sanctius

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    I know it's an endless debate between "hardcore players" and "carebears" whether there should be open world PvP or not. Just by using such terms to describe one group or the other is just childish but that's a side note...

    After listening to the latest dev hangout, i think this game actually may be the first game to have great balance between the interests of these two groups. They did talk about penalty of dying and rewards for taking risks which sounds pretty good to me and i'm sure they want suggestions how to do this. I'm not a big fan of PvP, especially arenas or somesuch, but i do love the feeling of danger and elements of surprise.

    Since for a "fact" we can say that full loot PvP games are never going to make it to AAA-games simply for financial reasons, let's try promote the risk and reward type of system here and think of creative solutions for that. The more you risk the more you can lose but if you don't want to, it's ok.
     
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  5. rschultzy80

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    "Since for a ?fact? we can say that full loot PvP games are never going to make it to AAA-games simply for financial reasons, let?s try promote the risk and reward type of system here and think of creative solutions for that. The more you risk the more you can lose but if you don?t want to, it?s ok. "

    You make a valid point here, I understand that there aren't enough people out there who want full loot PvP. That being said, I feel as though there should be some room. Perhaps a % chance drop rate of equipped gear or from the inventory stash. I saw on the video today them likening death penalties to Dante's Inferno, which could be a creative way to go.

    I never played WoW long enough to even get into Arenas as I couldn't stand the game so I can't comment on that form of PvP.

    It's just what's the point of PvP if you have nothing to lose? Ooh, I have to quest my way out of this netherworld. Sure, it's time consuming and may even be a fun and interesting way to do things but there should always be some sort of material/monetary loss in a PvP death. From what I've seen over there years, that loss is the main thing that drives people away from "REAL" PvP. No one wants to grind for 3 months for their uber vorpal weapon just to lose it getting ganked doing something stupid. I don't want to make a blanket statement and say that's all the PvErs, but in my experience that's the driving force that scares most people from true PvP.

    It's more than evident I prefer open world games that involve real danger around every corner, again, I just want to know why so much of the gaming community is against this? I see people in these forums already trying to sell their pioneer accounts because "I might have to PvP". I really just don't understand the mentality behind it and to see so many people lobbying for another content based PvE game really bothers me.

    I'm all for balance between PvE and PvP, I just don't want to see another potentially great game go down in flames catering to the masses.
     
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  6. Owain

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    @rune_74. We have new folks in the forums. Perhaps it would be more helpful if you just supplied a link to the other thread, since a new person will probably not have read all the previous posts in the forums. I think we should all make an effort to welcome new folks to the forums, and not be jerks about it.


    @rshultzy80. Welcome to the forums. Here is a previous thread that discusses the issue at exhaustive length. If you still have questions after reviewing this information, let us know.

    https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=tram-killed-uo-is-tram-back&amp;paged=1
     
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  7. rschultzy80

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    Yeah, I just registered yesterday and I'm trying to get caught up with the forums. For those reading this opposed to PvP they should read some of the "Tell your tale" stories. I'll try to find the link. Thank you Owain, I will head there now.
     
  8. rschultzy80

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    I can't edit my post but here is the thread I mentioned. https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/?topic=ultima-online-memories
     
  9. rune_74

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    I wasn't being overly mean, I don't think...and you are right he is new, which I didn't really realize. Oh well, lets not spin this into another crusade Owain.
     
  10. rschultzy80

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    I've been on message boards long enough not to get offended by every quick response. xD

    If a mod likes they can lock this, as it has been pointed out, a similar thread already exists.
     
  11. An_Corp

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    Yup, I agree with the OP of this thread, let's never forget it. Otherwise all of us here would be in UO now.
     
  12. Sanctius

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    I won't add up to this topic no more since it's well covered in the other topic but i just wanted to say thanks rschultzy80 for making valid arguments for your point of view and creating discussion (on the other thread).
     
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  13. Vaere

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    I am NOT a hardcore PVP player but in this case i do have to agree somewhat with the author. I played EQ1 from the start on various servers, i played UO for a time. And i must say that all games since have become VERY easy / basic. There is no skill, no tactics really involved. People simply throw themselves at t he bosses or encounters until it is completed. They wear their best sets of gear all the time.

    I hope that this game will not be simply throw yourself at the boss, run around with no worries. I am hoping for a game that is challanging, and makes me think of what item should be used where.

    Any of you remember spending hours at a raid or encounter EQ and planning so you would not wipe. People paid attention or they simply did not get to go, there was other things for them to do. Still have some gear in DDO that i refuse to wear most of the time when i do play it, reason being is its too value to damage, its resurved for special occasions. Current games everyone seems entitled to see the endgame / high end encounters. No matter how poor a player, they simply get to res and slam their faces against the beasts.

    Fearing loss makes you plan so you dont loose, you actually truly value your items and gear as well as your life (you should). Also if you do, gather a team and hunt the person down who did it. Its part of the challange, it makes the world dynamic. I even hope they actualy put experience loss in here from deaths and make it meaningfull so people value it.
     
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  14. Zigmalion

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    As much as the hardcore anti-Trammel PvPers and wannabe PKers wail against the so-called "carebears" and people who prefer to play the game without constantly being on the lookout for PKs and griefers, it seems like they tend to insist that everyone play the game their way. I rarely, if ever, see the so-called "Trammies" or "carebears" telling the people who prefer PvP that Felucca should be eliminated in UO and that players shouldn't have a choice to PvP.

    It's telling that only one side is trying to tell everyone that the only "right" way to play is their way. And I say this as someone who enjoys a good PvP.
     
  15. DLMyth

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    Trammel ruined my pk/anti pk fun. Made the game too easy and "safe". My thief/scammer character became very boring to play afterwards.
     
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  16. Qmarkball

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    I agree that the world Trammel ruined UO, but it also was a great add on and brought alot of new people into the game.


    HONESTLY i think the added expansions of the later added worlds ruined the game, like the stat scrolls and and boss drops. that made the game so unfair. Then after EA took away trading animals that were tammed and sold *beeped* the game. Tamming was so powerful and after they nerfed it the game sucked...

    on top of that, macros in PVP were insane and there was no support from the GMs after that.
     
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  17. Hai-Etlik Dragon

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    As the point of the game is virtues, incentives for both "being good" and "being bad" should be big factors. Probably with being good paying off in the long term while being bad pays off in the short term, but with long term consequences. If unvirtuous players have a higher death penalty for instance, while virtuous ones have a lower death penalty.

    Having PVP outcomes (or PVNPC) other than death for one side or the other would also be good. If you surrender, you suffer a lesser penalty than death, or even no penalty other than having to back off, and if you refuse your opponent's surrender, you get hit with a penalty to virtue (Although you gain more materially, ignoring the risk of continued combat)

    It would be hard to implement given the reasons PVP might have for occurring. The trick would be in letting the game know WHY the PVP is occurring, and what constitutes a violation of the terms of surrender.

    So if you just roam around slaughtering other players who are minding their own business and not strong enough to fight back. You should be accruing a LOT of bad karma for doing so and will get hit HARD when you die yourself.

    PVP should also always be risky. Even a newbie should be able to have a chance of causing some sort of significant harm, even it is just a fluke. Massively inflating hit points and raw damage with advancement would hinder this. I'd rather see advancement in terms of avoiding being hit, landing hits, and dealing with or imposing disadvantageous conditions rather than by making advanced players into indestructible superheroes who can cleave boulders in two with their pinky fingers.

    A fight to the death should be special and should have a reason behind it. Under terms like that, I'd see PVP as a beneficial thing, more so from the potential of it happening than from simply beating on each other.
     
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  18. Sanctius

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    I completely agree with Hai-Etlik that PVP should have a meaning and hopefully tied to the game story or lore. I love danger and difficulty in games but i don't particularly like PVP.

    I absolutely don't like WoW type of arena combat (which is still better tied to the game world than in most games) or any other PVP battlefield maps that almost every game has. It's boring, repetitive and really has no meaning other than gaining points.

    Now i liked UO PvP. And i really sucked in that. I probably got killed 9/10 times when a PK decided to engage me but it was still the best PvP experience i've ever had. Maybe there was not really a meaning for the pvp in UO either but it was a living world with people playing different type of characters which made it exciting.

    I do want to see the game encouraging, not forcing but encouraging, to play in PvP mode using the story and incentives to make it appealing to large audience.
     
  19. Nhili Dragon

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    I tried WoW but out of boredom and I did not do arena as it seems silly. DAoC RvR was fun defending the keeps, before EA nerfed it. ShadowBane was fun as I enjoyed building our guild town then defending them and helping our alliances defend theirs.
    I did like open pvp on UO as it (IMO) added an danger element to the game I enjoyed even though I died a lot in the early months.
    I am looking forward to this game. Hai-Etlik Dragon said it well. I do agree also with most of what rschultzy80 said. Ea posted on the forums, before they took them down, they wanted to make the game easy enough for 8 year olds to play. Hence Trammel.
     
  20. BatGojko

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    First, since it is my first post I want to say hello to all of you!
    Hello ;)
    I like good meaningful PvP but I don't like the idea of bunch of players just spoiling the fun of the others. PvP should provide gameplay by itself and then it could be very beneficial for the game.
    As Hai-Etlik Dragon mention it the consequences of the PvP actions should be meaningful and the attacker should never be sure of his success so he can't play a bully. Let's see how the things go in real life - is a bunch of bullies start harassing others the others always have chance to organize better and beat them badly. What happens in games? Not exactly that. Why? Because of imperfect rules that makes a level 1 character so weaker than level 20 character so the last can beat literary countless level 1 characters. Oh yes, what else happens in the "real life" if you kill someone? (luckily speak without first-hand experience so it is only a hypothetical suggestion) - 1. Police or any other organized force chase the killer; 2. The killer (hopefully) is being haunted by remorse.
    To have an equivalent of the police in a game is a tricky part - the game always knows who the killer is so playing a killer is in disadvantage but anyway it is the easiest of the two effects to simulate. Having the effect of remorse is much harder although it's absolutely possible with the proper game mechanics (especially when the game has mechanics as virtues, karma etc.)
    So I support the well made PvP but if it will would be implemented poorly it can do more harm than good so it depends on how the game setting is supposed to work and how PvP mechanics fit (or not) in it. I hadn't read all the topics in the forums so I'm not sure what the plans for the PvP in the game are - else I would be glad to be engaged in deeper discussions about the possible approaches of the PvP in MMO (but since it's not exactly MMO, probably all my theories will not fit right so I first need to read all about the project - and this task seems huge ;) )
     
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