Trammel Ruined UO

Discussion in 'The Kingdoms of Old' started by rschultzy80, Apr 16, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hai-Etlik Dragon

    Hai-Etlik Dragon Avatar

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    @BatGojko Absolutely. I'd much rather have no PVP than bad, or even mediocre PVP. I'm here as a Single Player Ultima fan, not a UO fan and I'm sure my overall opinions would get me labelled a "carebare" by some (and it goes to show how little I have to do with PVP and MMOs in general that I'd never heard that term until coming to the SotA forums).

    I do see how it could benefit aspects of the game I enjoy if done right though and I'm fairly certain there's a middle ground where a lot of us can be happy. Obviously, anyone who is completely opposed to players having any negative impact on each other whatsoever is never going to be able to get along with anyone who thinks the whole game should be a constant free for all death match, but I think most of us are somewhere in between.
     
  2. cagle

    cagle Avatar

    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    118
    Trophy Points:
    20
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Piney Flats Tn
    Greetings
    My first post! I wish I was employed I would be pledging $100 a paycheck. I have been apart of the Ultima world since Ultima 7. I skimmed this post and can say part of the experience in Ultima Online was learning that the game wasn't safe and that it was very much like the real world.
    Instead of Trammel ruined Ultima or Care Bears, I think the question should be focused more on "When does PVP go to far?" I can remember my first year of Ultima Online. I started as a miner. I spent hours and hours doing this. Eventually a PK came along and began killing me every nite. Sometimes I spent hours trying to avoid the PK. Other times the PK was only their a few minutes. It reached a point the guild I was a part of even worked as a team to take the PK out. However the PK had a prepatched bow. I won't lie their were nites I was beyond upset and angry and wanted to quit the game. I didn't I kept trucking.
    I play on a free shard now. Most of the free shards are pre trammel from what I have seen. It has been 15 years and just last nite I was grinding for Gold. It didn't take but a few minutes for a PVP to come in where I was an kill me.
    In general most PK's have an honor system. If you report the PK they will probably ress kill you. However if you are calm and cool or even joke they almost always return your items. I believe you should focus on a system that holds true to Ultima Online where you login and it is a simple FACT you will face PK's.
    You can break PK's into three categories.
    1. Dork Pk who sees an opportunity to kill another player does it occasionally.
    2. PK who does it for the battle and the challenge.
    3. The PK who is Dexter Morgan,Osama Bin Laden, Hitler, etc.
    Given this make the game similar to real life and the original game idea. A reward system for killing a PK or bounty. Allow the PK to use something akin to Assassin Creed hiding and not drawing attention to themselves unless they are in the PK category 3. Give the PK's free run as it is in real life. At the same time make them as criminals have struggles that all criminals face. Make the PK life into a challenge. Use the NPC's to play Assassin roles as in Assassin's Creed to where a PK never knows when an NPC assailant might appear behind them to attempt to take them out and by so doing exposing them to other players or again when Category 3 PK is around they reach a certain number of kills and become a continual target until taken out. Classic example Grand Theft Auto: When you go on a killing spree the more harm you do to the public the greater the threat increases to you as the player progressively. A 5 star system in GTA creates an eventual guaranteed end or restart to the player without tremendous loss.
    The bottom line is its meant to be a dangerous world and if you can't stand a few bloody noses don't log in.
     
    God and Deathblow like this.
  3. dweebothegeek

    dweebothegeek Avatar

    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I would really like to see a pvp system similar to ultima. gear needs to be easily craftable. and the difference between level 1 and 100 needs to be a small gap to the point that if I am with 3 of my buds and 1 guy comes to PK us. He should pretty much expect to die or run away. that being said if the player is just superior at operating the controls of the game mechanics perhaps he could triumph outnumbered. but i grinded longer then you pking is not fun.

    with some mechanics like ive described above I would be able to go do my pve with my pals and some pker wants to kill us. we could take his items unless he was just plain better at controling the character then all 3 of us combined. also if 10 guys come in to murder us and loot what we have gained. fair enough they get the loot.

    this being said you should see militias of anti murderers form to protect dungeons and what not. In ultima online if a pk came to deceit he was going to die. he was outnumbered. you didnt see them in the highly populated dungeons often. and when you did they usually were the one being looted. murders usually roam forests and isolated areas. so use caution when away from the safety of numbers.

    im not sure what is wrong with a dangerous world when the majority is anti murder. i am not pvp player but i will not play an online game where i have no risk. thats what i have skyrim for.
     
  4. doug200463

    doug200463 Avatar

    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    8
    LOL, it may have ruined UO for you, but UO thrived when trammel was released.. not everyone likes to PvP..
     
  5. Myth2

    Myth2 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Terrible choice of words for the title. "Trammel ruined UO" is just an invitation to argue. That said, the issue at hand is whether or not to have a safe or unsafe world. PVE campers argue that they shouldn't have to be griefed when they go mining or hunting. PVP campers argue that PVE campers should just play another game considering that the majority of games, in a very logical business approach to gaming, pander to the lowest common denominator by making the world safe.

    Despite the crux of this issue being presented concisely by many players from both camps, attack threads like this still seem to get created, which focus more on attacking the other interest than supporting their own. The bottom line is that we've been told that the world will be made to show only people who share your interests. If you're from the PVE camp, you will only see other people of that camp and will not be able to murder them. If you're from the PVP camp, you will only see other PVP campers and everyone will be fair game. This approach caters to both interests effectively, and preserves both the classic unsafe UO world feel AND the modern safe MMO world feel. There is no reason for the trammelite/felucian war to wage any further, especially if these details are not taken into account.
     
    Bodhbh Dearg and Montaigne like this.
  6. jayd

    jayd Avatar

    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    18
    While I mostly agree with Mordecai, it is entirely unclear to me how the world showing people with your interests is all that much better that just having a split shard. I admit that I might not know enough about the details of the implementation.
    I think what is primarily lost here is that there are not just 2 camps. There are at least 3 (and more accurately, a continuum).

    I am in the third camp. I would rather have non-consentual PVP. It generates a lot of interesting experiences. But if it isnt implemented correctly, then I am going to move to the PVE camp.
    I think there are a lot of folks (whether they realize it or not) that are in this camp.

    I also think that treating the game design like there are only 2 camps directly contributes to creating 2 camps. That is unfortunate.
     
    Francois424 likes this.
  7. SirBoss

    SirBoss Avatar

    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Allen near Dallas
    PvP is great but most people don't like it I loved the risk , but sometimes I didn't. And I play on a pre-trammel uo server now and everyone wants to be a red. I am afraid it would hinder the game. Maybe you should have a random item loss and gold loss but not everything. or have a safe zone but a small area. Don't get me wrong my good times were robbing people and town stealing at the bank. I stole houses in the early years of UO I hade a GM thief very fast. I picked the locks and stole the house. I pickpocketed for keys. Fun fun fun. But the majority of the gamers like care bear lands. WoW PvP was boring. RISK is what made UO. Your adrenaline start pumping and you couldn't use the keyboard it was fun.
     
    na0cho and TigerKhan like this.
  8. Francois424

    Francois424 Avatar

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal, Québec, Canada
    Now ppl may hate trammel, and in some areas I agree with them.

    However, when trammel got out, I was on catskills with The silver League guild. We all decided to move onto trammel so we could do guild event without getting harrassed by other players.
    See in Felluca, we coudn't HOPE of doing a guild evening in a dongeon, because for sure as we'd enter the lower parts, we'd meet 3-6 PKs waiting for us... that was 75+% of the time.
    Sure it's more exiting when PKs can come and spice things up... but not all the time. So after thinking it over out ENTIRE guild decided to move there.
    It was almost as fun on the trammel side overall. With my Anti-PK guild, we travelled between both world and had a blast in the Felluca dongeons, and we weren't hunting poison elementals either.

    What killed UO imho is the constant nerfing of everything ppl enjoyed :
    - You loved tailoring ? well too bad, now you can't break even while doing it in town.; go play outside; OUT I said !
    - You like PK heh ? Too bad, now there's trammel.
    - Oh, you liked crafting items ? Well too bad, now it's another wow clone where you hunt rares to get better stuff to hunt in harder zones where there's other rares; good luck selling your GM stuff fella.
    - Ah, you want a house bigger than a 7x7 ? Tough luck kid, go deal with RMTraders or save up a gazzilion gold and hope you dont get conned at the trade site... assuming you find anyone wanting to sell; spots being preciously rare and all.
    - You liked escorting NPCs around ? Now you can only escort one per 15min... GOTCHA KIDDO !

    No matter what you liked, you got shafted...
    Those that came later didn't enjoy the game in all it's glory so dont miss these things... but everybody else that liked the receipy and had it turn bad on them left.
    I don't know for you all, but games that kill many aspects of my fun aren't worth my sub anymore.

    My 2 cents worth.
     
    Bodhbh Dearg, na0cho and TigerKhan like this.
  9. Myth2

    Myth2 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,020
    Likes Received:
    1,470
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Don't worry friend. Some day, Tom Chilton will pay for his crimes against UO.

    Also, selling HotM, 20m. PM me. :p
     
    Bodhbh Dearg likes this.
  10. Annora

    Annora Avatar

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Vancouver Island
    I have to say I agree. Consequences are what made UO what it was in its heydey. It was truly open world, you could play the game however you wanted and if you wanted to survive, you learned to seek out like-minded players and band together. PKs formed bands of roving PKs, and gatherers formed guilds or hired muscle. It was the ultimate roleplaying experience, it was exactly what it would be if you yourself were transported into that world. It was not friendly to solo adventurers, not everybody had good intentions, and it made it exciting and unpredictable.

    I understand why some people chose to stay in Trammel, and I fully recognize that it was something that was necessary, albeit poorly implemented. Like the realm types in most modern MMOs, that is what should have happened. Given the immense populations of the PVP servers in recent MMOs, it shows that yes, people do indeed love the thrill of being constantly in danger outside of the major cities. So it should have been a few PVE shards, and the rest PVP. PVE shards are perma-Trammel, the others are only Felucca. I think that would have gone over better with the community.
     
  11. SmokerKGB

    SmokerKGB Avatar

    Messages:
    2,115
    Likes Received:
    2,689
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pittsburg, CA
    First you blaim Trammel for killing UO, then you blaim all the other games on the market and then you blaim all the other players for not agreeing with your game style.

    You have Felluca, but there's noone there? That would be an indication that your game style is a "minority" in the great scheme of things....
     
  12. sakuraba

    sakuraba Avatar

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I played UO and payed my subscription fee for over 10 years.

    I really dont know why people left UO in droves and it had a hard time with player retention.

    Back in the hay-day on Great Lakes I have screenshots of the West Britan Bank and it was shoulder to shoulder..PACKED.

    When T2A came out in 1998 UO was going so strong but by 2002 when they had Tod Mcfarlane onboard and released Lord Blackthrone's Revenge things were going down hill.

    Player retention was terrible.

    I think UO went in a wierd direction.....and the dev's were NOT listening to players.

    In the end there were a hell of alot of microtransactions that could be made and just appeared to be a money making scheme with no direction.

    I wouldn't say Trammel killed UO and I think theres more to it than that, but it was alot of fun when there was no Trammel.

    All-in-All; over the 10 years I played and all the hours I put in I must have died thousands of times and thought it was all just good fun. Yes sometimes I was pissed or I got PK'ed at the worst time and I lost an uninsured peice of leather with high LRC/LMC +70 resists that cost me a small fortune but in the end I wouldnt have changed any of it.

    Great times!
     
    Sir Stile Teckel likes this.
  13. Duke Lorimus

    Duke Lorimus Avatar

    Messages:
    908
    Likes Received:
    1,415
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    I think a lot of people are mistaking all Pkers to the players that would grief them.. And just go out of the way to create a bad experience... I would never rez kill a player unless they and friends just got rezed and revenge attacked me..

    Sent from my DROID RAZR
     
  14. Artariel

    Artariel Avatar

    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Instead of implementing a better reputation and murdering rules, they added Trammel and killed UO. Since then, I have never got the fun i got from UO in any MMORPGs. It makes me sad that people don't accept the truth.
     
  15. UnseenDragon

    UnseenDragon Avatar

    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    1,097
    Trophy Points:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Columiba, MD
    This will never die. Please try and avoid hyperbole, what you didn't like is not neccesairly what detroyed the game.
    First, I would argue that often Developers shoudln't listen to the players. Players rarely understand the dynamics of their desires. We are, by defintion, focused on how the mechanism effects us more than the overall game.
    Two, I don't enjoy playing competativly against other people in computer games - never have. I have nothing against people who do enjoy that, and I want mechanisms in place that people who want to do that can. But I think it's unfair to tell people who don't like it that they have to deal with it.
    I do understand the dynamic brought by having notorious and nafarious players and the benefits. However, that is rearely something I have wanted to engage in.

    Unseen
     
    SmokerKGB likes this.
  16. High Baron O`Sullivan

    High Baron O`Sullivan Avatar

    Messages:
    3,503
    Likes Received:
    8,140
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    is everything.
    Good thing the nice people at Portalarium have us covered.
     
    Sir Stile Teckel and skinned like this.
  17. sakuraba

    sakuraba Avatar

    Messages:
    254
    Likes Received:
    512
    Trophy Points:
    28

    Can we really trust our lord and saviour Mr Richard Garriott?
     
    OSullivan likes this.
  18. TigerKhan

    TigerKhan Avatar

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I remember near the end of UO's time, the world was empty and I just ran around constantly hoping to find an actual player, even in the towns..... The world became a ghost town and it was depressing to see because the idea that originally was UO had vanished and it bummed me to see, I used to spend much of my free time on the game when it was popular back when I was in my early 20's during the holidays along with my close friends all on our computers. Now I hope that SotA will bring back some of those good memories and I'll be back online with the same friends playing this new version.
     
    Ara likes this.
  19. Caveloot.com Owner

    Caveloot.com Owner Avatar

    Messages:
    2,833
    Likes Received:
    5,665
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States, Indiana
    Why wouldn't we?

    Break it down.. While i dont think hes as rich as people want to think.. Hes probably rich enough he could spend the rest of his life on a private boat with kinga on his lap tossing a line into the water.

    Hes known for his adventured.. Antarctica, going into space, visiting the titanic.. But lets face it. Hes 52 and has a child... Those adventures gave a big risk... My attitude about risks changed when my daughter was born.. I doubt well see any more dangerous and exciting adventures from him.

    So... You have enough money to maintain your current lifestyle until death.. You probably are not planning on anymore trips that cost more then ill see in a few lifetimes.. You have a new baby to enjoy...

    But you still need a hobby.. Whats his biggest hobby? Making games and playing them.

    Hes not in this to make money (although if your going to do it, you should make it profitable!)

    Hes in it for fun. That and possibly leaving s viable company to his family someday.

    So.. If your in it for fun.... Thats going to be the big priority... If your also in it to have a game youd enjoy playing, and if what you enjoy playing had similar tastes.... Then you can be fairly certain that youll like what he makes.. So no reason not to trust in him for this adventure.

    Well, those are my theory's and why im here.. Combined with his record of sucsess.
     
    Mordecai likes this.
  20. Gilliam

    Gilliam Avatar

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I just want to say I Love TRAMMEL, it was the best thing that happen to UO. My first day in UO i met this friendly chap who wanted to help me took me to a grave yard heal me as i did fight skelltons , then said come back to my house get you some better armor. I follow Enter his door My world went Black then Grey , then i was ejected and ban from his house never to reclaim my body or goods on it ( at that time even my starting weapons were not bless) I some times wonder how i did play the game for 6 years with a start like that.
     
    SmokerKGB likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.