Trammel Ruined UO

Discussion in 'The Kingdoms of Old' started by rschultzy80, Apr 16, 2013.

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  1. jalmeida

    jalmeida Avatar

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    I grew up in Kalispell Mishri miss that area!



    Pretty much, I agree it was the way it was done that made Trammel so horrible. but also they did introduce 2 new shards at the time that had no trammel. and that also caused problems because a LOT of the hard core folks moved there which made for even further seperating the population. I think the reason the "pvp" crowd is so vocal and gets so annoyed with the non-pvp crowd is every game out there tends to cater to the non-pvpers. there are a handful of games left that cater more to the pvp Crowd. Eve online has been going strong for over 10 years. but they will never be a "wow" level game population wise. Mortal Online tried to be the "UO 2" but it failed horrible.

    I am ok with that I would love a nice nitch game that caters to the pvpers from UO. for the people who hate PvP no offense but you already have every other game out there.... For me the BIGGEST thing about open PvP is the consquense's and I dont just mean gear. I played WOW for a few years but I got so sick of all the little douche bag kids who could get away with doing what they wanted.. I really love the model where if you want to be a douche you can but dont ever leave town...

    Also please stop making Crafting a secondary little crap side job... I want all gear to be crafter made and if you take the time to get better mats you have a better product.. there is nothing better then a TRUE player run econmy!

    It would be interesting if they could do a breakdown of the supporters I would be curious to see if one side or the other is contributing more not to push through that sides agenda but I have my guess and I would honestly think it would be cool to see who is more invested in this game.
     
  2. Vallo Frostbane

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    I am all the way against the dumbing down of the game.. however turning the game into a deathmatch won't help either.
    RISK vs. REWARD and REAL consequences of your behaviour in a virtual world is what we need. No mass murder without punishment - no rare stuff without risk and challenge. Trammel just was the easy solution.

    I think were finally trying to invent the new chess here with this project, instead of another tunnel mmo game.
     
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  3. greaseDonkey

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    The problem with WoW PvP is that they were no consequences for dying. Where as in UO engaging in PvP as a Red PK you had too make sure it was worth the risk.
     
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  4. Nemo Herringwary

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    PvP/PKers are the most self absorbed faction in MMO gaming; that's not meant as an insult, just a simple statement of fact. Here we are , 16 years later from the launch of UO, the data is long since in and analaysed , the market has long since moved to a Theme Park model and proven it's success (WoW hits it's 9 year anniversary later this month) and here and now there's absolutely no, and let me highlight this part, absolutely no indication Shroud of the Avatar is going to be open PvP like Ultima was at launch, and yet here we are still, having the same old debates and the same old wishful thinking that, if only someone would make that game again, it'd all be like it was nearly two decades ago when you were younger...

    But no, Trammel didn't kill UO. It saved the game. Subscriptions continued to rise until Age of Shadows. It only killed it for a very small, very deluded minority of you. And that minority of you didn't move to Shadowbane or Warhammer or any of the myriad other games that were "going to kill UO" over those decades. Your arguments were tested time and time and time again; they never were and never would be proven correct when it was asked to put money where mouth was. There are possibly people who have met in Ultima Online, married, and raised children who are about to go to college now in the time since those arguments first started. September 11th was 5 years in the future for UO. The Invasion of Iraq was 6 years in UOs future.

    Now Richard Gariott is always on the cutting edge, and occasionally ends up accidentally cutting his own projects as he forges into the unknown because of that... but he's always where the future, not the past of development is; and the simple facts are, in the MMO space, the development is looking at social media, free to play, kickstarter etc... remember, Ultima Online was launched 7 years before Facebook even went online as a limited service for Harvard students.

    Just... let it go, guys. It felt right for you then, but your facts are simply wrong for everyone else, and the world has moved on.
     
  5. greaseDonkey

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    It's funny that some people claim they want to have a game as realistic as possible, but when it comes to killing or stealing someone it a different story.

    I just hope that there will be two separate world for those who wants full PvP.
     
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  6. Duke Death-Knell

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    I don't want realism. This is a fantasy game in a virtual world. People who want reality should go play Sims or actually get outside and experience life.
    As to reality, if people want realism then the penalty for PKs/stealing and such should match realistic penalties.
     
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  7. Myth2

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    I'm afraid I'm struggling to understand.
     
  8. Vallo Frostbane

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    Pk and thieving needs to have consequences and be risky. I agree that uo was not harsh enough on them.

    I think Aron your pve only easymode guys are as bad as those selfish people you mentioned. The grail is in the middle here,
     
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  9. High Baron Asguard

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    Its funny those who claim to want "realisim" as a means to force people into THEIR play style but whinge like a little girl when realistic conquences like account deletion (exercution) are suggested for commiting the crime of murder
     
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  10. greaseDonkey

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    Look I'm all for up big consequences, more than in UO, but deleting account, wow.. come on! If you don't have anything better to contribute, maybe your should just skip this thread.
     
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  11. High Baron Asguard

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    You wanted realising, there are reasons that people are generally not running around commuting theft and murder. In the REAL world if you do this you go to REAL jail, not fun gammy jail for an hour till you break out, REAL jail for years to life or you get killed, not gammy killed where your back ready again a second latter, REAL dead. Now if you want Realisim, I am all for it, but to call for one side of the equation and not the consequences of those actions is not realism, it's you bleating that people won't be sheep for your game style.

    Either have it all or let everyone play the game style THEY want
     
  12. greaseDonkey

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    Ok, let's just take a step back and instead of trying to force play style on to each other, maybe we should put our time and effort on trying to come up with ideas that would please both world.

    What if jail time was based on the number of murders? What if town were not accessible at all? What if bounty rewards were available to those hunting PK? What if making the choice of committing murder would make your life a lot more harder then the other casual player?

    Lastly, as I said in my previous post, what if there was two different servers, one for those who want to engage in PvP and another for those who don't?
     
  13. Koldar

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    Pv[P|E]ers, a friendly reminder to keep this thread civilized. Both sides always have strong views in PvP threads, which is great. Discussion is great. But no personal attacks because someone doesn't like to play the way you do. Have your discussion without the insults. Thanks!
     
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  14. jalmeida

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    Try and keep in mind we dont have the CSI team to swoop in and get DNA samples from the SWORD kill. So comparing it to modern day real life would be beyond silly. Now if you go back in time to when there were Castles and Villages, Serfs and Lords... I bet people got away with murder quite a lot...

    Just saying....
     
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  15. Veskandar

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    But but we had cadfael :p
     
  16. High Baron Asguard

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    OMG someone else who knows what Cadfael is, Ellis Peters is an awesome author
     
  17. Favonius Cornelius

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    Going back to the OP, I am very sympathetic about what you are talking about and totally agree with you, but I am very suprised you hold up DAoC as an example of a hardcore dynamic game. It is one of the most linear and controlled games out there, and the PvP was very specific and repetitive, every bit as much if not more than WoW.
     
  18. Arkhan

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    Well, some fans of Ultima are in it for the story interactions and the adventure, so it's a bit moronic to insult them because they don't feel like dealing with electronic meat heads who want a hardcore experience.

    This game is a throwback to Ultima. not just Ultima Online. So, a lot of the trammies are seasoned Ultima fans that were there for Mondain's slaying, all the way through the Guardian.

    It's pretty disrespectful to look down on them.

    I question how much of a fan of the Ultima series someone like that really is. I just envision someone who runs around Britannia, slaughtering NPCs and stealing everything instead of giving any thought to the story and the characters.

    Ultima Online had no story. There was no story driven aspect. The character interactions with NPCs were robotic.

    SotA is not going to turn out like that. Sorry to break it to all of you people who were really into UO and just want another UO. It's not going to happen like you want it to.
     
  19. Orladin

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    Great Bait OP!
    Meh here we go beating this tired, dead, decayed, composted, buried, had trees planted on top of now growing apples, old horse.
    Look we all loved UO. Some of us loved it for varying reasons. Lets take a look at the grand timeline of UO. Fel. Tram. People who loved PVP. People who hated it. And then "fixes" to make everyone (customers) happy. The good AND the bad fixes. In our opinions anyways.
    Let's look at when UO was a nice shiny new game. You had Fel. Outside of guard zones we all know what happened. You got attacked or you attacked. If you won, great you kept your stuff. If you lost hey you had to go re suit. Putting together a throwaway suit was in fact NOT some ungodly hard thing to do. There were places in a few towns where you could mine INSIDE guard zones. Warriors too lazy to make a smith? You played naked or bought from other smiths. Mages too lazy to make a tailor? You played naked or bought from other players. Most played naked. But those horned and barbed leather exceptional suits did in fact make a world of difference.
    Mages were top dogs considering how damage from spells worked. If your eval was higher than their resist spells skill then they took lots of damage. Then you had your tamers. Half their skills were dedicated to their pets. Then splashed with mage,warrior or bard skills. The same with bards.
    Warriors swung weapons and threw arrows. They hit or were hit 50% of the time at even skill levels. We all know the formula there. Mages blew you up and ran around all over the place. But they always hit. Could port around the screen, paralyze, poison, disarm and stun punch with their base cookie cutter pure mage template. At a moments notice.
    Then flavor of the month templates. Hally mages. Vanquishing bow mages. Tank mages.
    INB4 Omg why can't I peeveepee wit muh pure mage anymore?
    Then the devs had to do something about the customer base complaining about people being "griefed"
    Forget the fact player versus player was on the box.
    Forget the fact that it was also in the instruction manual.
    That's what actually drew me personally to it. Playing Twisted Metal and Diablo against your friends is one thing for competition. But it gets old and stale.
    Swords? check, magic? check, monsters? check, dungeons? check. Fond memories of Ultima games in the past? Check.
    I knew what I was getting into when it was installed. So did everyone else from that era. Some people just rolled with the punches. I fought monsters, players, lag, windows 98 blue screens to log back in dead. Dial-Up disconnects. Got disconnected countless times by the teenage girl who had no regard whatsoever to me playing my silly nerd game on my stupid internet. She was gonna pick up the landline phone. Knowing it was going to disconnect me. And kill me. To call her friend who lived around the corner. A 4 minute walk out the door. That includes putting shoes on and going out the door. She could have yelled and achieved the same goal.
    I even gave RP a whirl with the kids who greeted me in Ye Olde English. I didn't complain I had fun.
    I stole, was stolen from, gave stuff to people down on their luck. Bummed myself when I was down on my luck. I was given things. I was denied as well and told to go elsewhere.
    So along comes Tram. Oh well game changed. Loads of people are mad. The people that don't want to pvp and wanna play safe can do that. Hey more power to them. To each their own.
    >Run around Fel
    >Fel's kinda dead
    Some people quit. Some people stayed and toughed it out on their servers and dealt with it. Some people moved.
    Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about 2 pvp servers. Those were Siege Perilous and Mugen. The devs gave their PVM customer base their sandboxes to play in. It had to be done I suppose. To players UO was our game world. To the devs it was their bread and butter. It was only good business practices. The terms of agreement stated that services were subject to change. They did.
    The devs also had their PVP players and the players who didn't so much mind getting killed. They threw us two huge bones. They threw us Siege and Mugen.
    Okay guys here's your very own personal free for all sandboxes. Here's everything you loved about the game.
    The downside was you had to start over. Which wasn't hard at all. I mean come on UO was simple and easy in it's time when it came to getting funds to get started. You also had to deal with ROT. Big deal. Then there was one character per account. You were accountable for your actions (I like this idea with SOTA)
    Siege was great. We had no shortage of crafters. You just had to have a good relationship with them. If we were out and about. Spotted a crafter mining away or whatnot. Us smart players would stick around and chat with them. Protect them from danger. Usually get a rune to their house/shop. It was a win/win situation. If they were in a guild then your actions were noted chances are. Good or bad. We had Queen Zen. That woman worked her digital fingers to the bone churning out gear. Blind Otto. Hitori Hanzo or however you spell it. Just to name a few.
    A lot of die hards jumped ship and went there. I don't know if anyone remembers that era but Siege and Mugen were always packed.
    The point is us PVPers and PKs were given an option. The people who took that option were more than happy. The people who didn't sat around their old servers. Ran around Yew Gate and Buccs Den. Hoping to hear the moongate sound. Then wait with an itchy magic trigger finger. Paralyze or explode precasted. Went and checked champ spawns. Then eventually dwindled down to "Tramul killed muh gaem"
    I got into at least 10x more rumbles on Siege than I did anywhere else. Day one was the worst. It was a gamble making it from the moongate in Moonglow to the dirt path leading into the town gates. It was home. I still farted around on Legends cause ex girlfriend's little bro played there (kid was 11 and lived in Fel) I still popped in on Europa to say hi to friends there as well.
    Some people were just too lazy to go elsewhere and get the ball rolling. Nothing else effected Siege. Til Malas was discovered.
    Chapter 2

    Now Age of Shadows killed UO! Holy crap this simple game just got some more customization!
    Chivalry and Necromancy were added. I played D&D. I always thought UO needed some magic wielding Paladins. And Necromancy aw yeah. Now all the goth kids with jet black robes and hats can have skills outside of their paperdoll character note thingies about how utterly evil they are and have something to back it up with.
    Along with a boatload of item mods for every single piece of equipment in the game. There was a huge learning curve. First off resists were messed with and scattered across several different new element types. Hey what do you know. Magic Arrow, Flamestrike, Explode, Meteor Swarm and Fireball all do fire damage? The same thing with Lightning Bold, Chain Lightning. Harm and Mindblast do Cold Damage? Why am I all the sudden taking insane amounts of damage from spells? My resist skill is high. Learning curve activated.
    Now something else came into play. Item insurance. Everyone got to now keep all their new shiny toys. Except for Siege and Mugen. Personal Bless deed made a world of difference. If it was used before doing homework it was wasted. A lot of people got excited and used it on that roxxor your face off Vanquishing katana or whatever else they had beforehand not knowing the damage they just did. Jumped the gun and stuff. Just to find out it was now kinda worthless.
    Artifacts and everything else came into play. A lot of people jumped ship on Siege and Mugen to go back to old places for the gear. Back to the old Yew gate and Champ spawn camping. Delved around there myself a bit and played around. Ultimately boring and you had far more downtime than uptime. Life in Sosaria went on. Regardless people left though. I had to say bye to several people. Had 3 people I turned on to the game IRL quit.
    But now Siege was semi tainted. Anyone who came after the personal bless deeds were implemented were at an extreme disadvantage to the people who did. That 1/3 faster casting or Orny gave casters the upper hand. The warriors who held out and blessed a 4-5 mod weapon were good to go. The devs were well aware of this problem. People trickled in slowly. But they circled the drain and left faster. It was still inhabited and thrived well. But the effects were noticed and present.
    People complained on Siege about the population dropping. God forbid someone mention item insurance in a stratics thread. They were flamed into the ground. They were usually flamed into the ground by the very people sporting some uber piece of gear who was NOT going to stop using it. Called a trammy and everything else under the sun.
    How about personaly bless deeds for everyone? Same response. If we wanted that kinda crap we'd play with the carebears!
    *Quietly puts blessed 50di 30ssi 46 hld 49 hit fireball 42 mana leech cleaver behind back and starts whistling.
    Now a lot of people shipped from UO then period. The learning curve "ruined muh gaem". Everquest had it's ball rolling. Final Fantasy 11 was on it's way. Muh Grafix and 900 silver haired named variations of XxSephi-rothXxX1 were becoming rampant around Bastok. I had a love for Final Fantasy since FF1 on the NES. A lot of my irl friends jumped on that ship. Tried it and it was just way too slow for my taste. I TRIED to like that game for 4 months.
    Farted around on Guild Wars for a while. No risk vs reward there. It was fun for what it was. Some of those missions were amazing. You could solo with henchmen and it was challenging. Group play was where it was fun. But no static world outside of "towns" or hubs. Pvp was a joke.

    Chapter 3 Samurai Empire and 7th anniversary items. Oh no ninjas and samurai killed muh gaem!
    More skills, templates and a learning curve around them. No big change like AOS. They built on the system they had. UO was still going semi strong. Prodo shards had pvp centered around Yew gate. Champ spawns were going. Everyone needs powerscrolls. Lots of people are now jumping on the WoW wagon. Some people quit due to boredom. Some people quit because they were pirates and we all know pirates don't like ninjas.
    Let's take a look at Siege. 7th anniversary items are in fact blessed on Siege. I facepalm because I know what I'm going to see on Stratics. I'm going to see everyone buttmad and up in arms about this. Talking about spamming devs and stuff to death. We don't want that trammy crap to go along with our trammy crap we already have and won't give up. Vows to kill on sight anyone they see wearing firepants and bunny hats. But don't look at my hunters headdress,pirate hat or max resist jesters cap or kasa of the rajin.
    Hey guys that 15dci helmet will be available to everyone, pants too.
    Rwar I worked for these items. These scrubs think they can just come here with their trammy crap.
    A month later everyone was sporting ungodly dyed firepants and sammy helms.
    There was another unfortunate add on with it. Soulstones. No more depending on crafters. Don't need em.

    Chapter 4 Mondain's Legacy. Elves wtf? Why?
    Spellweaving. Fun skill.
    Prodo shards = Yew Gate fighting (every now and then) and sometimes champ spawns. Farmed coon completely unbothered for an entire night over a bottle of vodka with a buddy of mine.
    Siege = blessed quivers. Same spiel with the ******** crap. A week later the vets have em and aprons. At some point blessed items with mods were removed around this timeframe. I think it's because they went to the basement to where the server was hosted and discovered the skeleton of the guy pulling the switches or something. Long dead since like circa 2001
    The only thing UO is to me at this point is a DOT on my credit card.
    Go to an old friends house for a bday party. Party like it's 1989. Things die down. People pass out/go home. He fires up WoW. Gotta do my crafting cooldowns man. He knows my stance on WoW as the "UO Killer" if you wanna play while you're still up here's my PW.
    Drink vodka. Play WoW.
    Old IRL friend on it. Why not? Semi fun but ultimately futile. Play from BC til Pandas. Not gonna gear grind again. It's a hamster wheel game.
    Quit WoW and give Warhammer a try. Meh same thing.
    See ED article on Age of Conan. Give it a try. Hey the game's actually decent.
    Don't visit UO til Stygian Abyss.

    Chapter 5 Stygian Abyss
    Buy SA. Play for the month. Never got my Mysticism to 100 real skill. Literally ran around on Siege untouched in a full LRC suit. Went afk for an hour at a time in the open unhidden. Several times. In "high traffic" areas.

    Chapter 6 Pirates
    ?????????????
    Boats were always clunky. I wasn't going to justify another trip to Sosaria to play in the pool with pirates.
    I do wish I could have been there to see Exodus bite the dust though.

    In conclusion Tram didn't kill UO. Pvp thrived for a long time in places. The places it thrived in the best eventually died off due to old dogs who were over powered when new dogs tried to get on the porch. It could have been fixed by making the field even. But no one discovered the corpse of the guy pulling the switches and stuff like on wizard of oz for a long time. The game slowly bled to death. If Tram killed UO there's countless classic servers out there if you just tell Mr.Google to find em for you. From pub 1 to SA. If you can't find one make your own?

    I'm sure the devs will have a safe sandbox for all the kids to play in. I'm sure they'll have an unsafe sandbox for the kids who want that as well. A lot of the people here are posting like the devs are strait out of internship or something.
    Richard and crew pioneered the online gaming industry. There's nothing that's been said through the hundreds of pages of responses that they haven't thought of or considered I'm sure.
    I have faith that this game will be as awesome as everything else he's given us. My personal passion for MMOs and even single player games is pretty much gone these days. Has been for around 2 years. I won't even consider joining people in whatever it is they're playing now. I've had friends offer to buy me up to speed on WoW expansions and even cover my sub. I have no desire to do so.
    This is directed at Richard and his crew. I always said if you spearheaded another project I'd be there. I mean I really have said that. Being a follower of the Virtue of Honesty and Honor I'm bound to do so. My poison (you better add poisons!) and death magic will be there to defend the lands. Or line my pockets.
    @ Tracy Hickman. You're by far my favorite author. I've been reading, enjoying and collecting your works since a group of old friends arrived back in Solace to catch up with each other.
    Mfw I incorporated Rikktor into a Dragonlance chronicle I was hosting.
    I hope you guys are about to blow my mind.
    @ The pvm kids. If we're not in the same sandbox then good luck to you. May your pixels be plentiful and rare robes stay rare. If not then I'm not responsible for you stepping into any of my AOEs. Catching agro from uncontrollable summons. If you wait around you'll get rezzed, healed, buffed and sent on your way. I may even help you out if we're on the same goal. Also given stuff if I have it and it'll help you out.
    If you get all uppity and upset then don't be surprised when you're drylooted. Beheaded. Corpse camped, teabagged and lulled at.
    @ The pvp kids. I'll see you on the field.
     
  20. JAMorton

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    @Orladin

    I don't agree with all of your points but that was a very interesting and considered piece you wrote :)
     
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