Trammel Ruined UO

Discussion in 'The Kingdoms of Old' started by rschultzy80, Apr 16, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Valdric

    Valdric Avatar

    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    100
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Frozen Tundra
    Trammel ruined UO for me, not for everyone.

    The game hit its peak shortly after.
     
  2. Sean

    Sean Avatar

    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    This is so well said, i couldnt agree with everything 100 percent
     
  3. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,064
    Likes Received:
    10,891
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City
    I'm going to highlight the highlights again.

    If somebody doesn't want to play the way you want to play, that does not make them children, afraid, irresponsible, or dumb.
     
  4. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

    Messages:
    18,208
    Likes Received:
    35,522
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    @Sir Frank, you're correct, but it also doesn't make what he's saying overall wrong. ;)

    Unfortunately, the two sides in their extremes are not compatible. I only hope that SotA can find the balance that makes them possible.
     
    Sir Frank likes this.
  5. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

    Messages:
    4,064
    Likes Received:
    10,891
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Kansas City

    I agree that it does not make him wrong.
    It isn't what he says, it's how he says it.
    The lack of maturity is part of the reason PvP and PvE don't get along.

    I share your hope that SotA can find the balance. In fact, I think they have by selectively matching us up with people who think like we do.
     
  6. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

    Messages:
    18,208
    Likes Received:
    35,522
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male

    I hope you're right. I would like to hear much more about how that will work. Based on what I've heard I think it's going in the right direction but I still worry greatly about the balance of risk and reward.

    It's very difficult to imagine a world where someone can dip their toe into PVP waters when it's convenient, and then shield themselves on the PVE beach when it's not. It's definately possible to balance this, but the devs have not shown (yet) that they will. Clearly, the easy path is to error on the side of a PVE focused game. But what a wasted opportunity that would be.
     
  7. Sir_Hemlock

    Sir_Hemlock Avatar

    Messages:
    1,197
    Likes Received:
    2,300
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The people posting these 'full open PvP or go find another game' jives remind me of stalker ex partners who think they are still in a relationship with you even though you haven't seen them in 6 months.
     
    Crusader of Sacrifice and Ned888 like this.
  8. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

    Messages:
    18,208
    Likes Received:
    35,522
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male

    Yes, perhaps if your "ex partner" represented a very large cross section of gamers that have been ignored completely by development teams for the last 15 years despite having begged them for balanced and meaningful pvp. Then yes, you're completely right.
     
  9. Phredicon

    Phredicon Avatar

    Messages:
    877
    Likes Received:
    1,840
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Isn't that odd? Why would game developers, who are in the business of providing games for money to gamers that want to play them, ignore "a very large" group of consumers for so long?

    There is probably a reason.
     
  10. Ned888

    Ned888 Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I do not think that you have the ability to support this claim. There is no 'Large Cross Section of Gamers' who support open world PvP. In fact it's a small fringe group of players and there is a mountain of historical data to prove it.
     
    Crusader of Sacrifice likes this.
  11. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

    Messages:
    18,208
    Likes Received:
    35,522
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male

    There are a number of reasons, some very good reasons. The one you're thinking of is that many of these same people make other people leave or not want to play their games. This is true.

    But I would argue, and this is where most PVE type players start to yell while holding their hands over their ears, that the mechanics of these games were poorly designed. You can have meaningful PVP, even meaningful non-consensual pvp if you balance your game correctly.
     
    Phredicon likes this.
  12. Poor game design

    Poor game design Avatar

    Messages:
    18,208
    Likes Received:
    35,522
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male

    In comparison to the hordes of players that SPECIFICALLY want PVE only (no risk) MMO's, you're right. Of course, if you start to widen your scope to first person shooters, action games, and just about any type of multiplayer game that allows you to kill other players, I think the case is fairly easy to make. In general, gamers like to kill each other. (See GTA and Halo as prime examples)

    I don't think it's any kind of stretch to assume that this is an untapped and unexplored market for MMO's. If anything, the PVE side of the house is probably tapped out in comparison to the PVP side.
     
  13. Ned888

    Ned888 Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    It's not untapped or unexplored. Most every game company has tried to some extent to cater to this audience with limited to no success. Some games have even been created specifically to support this audience and have failed miserably.

    IMO you can't equate a RPG to a FPS. Apples and Oranges.
     
    Crusader of Sacrifice likes this.
  14. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

    Messages:
    4,989
    Likes Received:
    10,737
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Dara Brae
    Beautiful post! Brought a lot of memories back. Great write up.
     
    tekkamansoul likes this.
  15. draykor darkale

    draykor darkale Avatar

    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    486
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Without Trammel couldn't see me playing UO for long, I am not by nature a pvper, I think having the split worked out well.
     
  16. Arkhan

    Arkhan Avatar

    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    517
    Trophy Points:
    105
    That's very true, draykorinee.

    Alot of people aren't very competitive by nature, or get tired of that kind of environment.

    I am one of those people. I'm not competitive and get really bored of it, very fast. I'm way more interested in quests/stories.
     
  17. E n v y

    E n v y Avatar

    Messages:
    4,783
    Likes Received:
    13,407
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    England
    I can never really understand this thought process.

    Just because you operate in an open combat world doesn't mean that everyone is going to attack you, it doesn't mean that you have to go and attack others. It just means that you have to be a little more cautious with people (not everyone's intention is good) and if you decide to travel to an area that is not well populated it is best to do so in a group (a guild activity).
     
    Ara likes this.
  18. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I dont believe it was necessary at all to implement trammel.

    With even harder consequences for being a murderer, blue or red, it would have dramatically decreased the risk for the causal player entering outside city areas.

    Statloss decreased the number of PK:s in felucca, alot, and with even harder consequences only the very few with very high playerskill would have stayed on that path. I know the number of PK:s decreased alot since i actually played the game before and after statloss was introduced.

    I see trammel merely as a way to get some fast money and convince the uneducated that felucca was just an option not a necessarity. I agree that felucca had a bad reputation but that was mainly before statloss was introduced.
     
  19. Ned888

    Ned888 Avatar

    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    1,153
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Though there was definitely a financial interest in doubling the landmass, especially where resources and housing were concerned; the root reason for creating Trammel and Felucca was to offer both PvE and PvP players separate areas in which to operate. The PvE crowd got their zone to RP and explore without the worry of getting ganked and the PvP crowd got the wild west that they craved.

    Boy the wild west sure did clear out fast didn't it? Not many folks at all, even with the incentive of extra resources and all. Sort of makes a person wonder why all the PvPers didn't support it more, or were there really not many PvP players after all? Hmmmm... makes you think....
     
  20. Ara

    Ara Avatar

    Messages:
    1,082
    Likes Received:
    717
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Your wrong.

    During UO Renaissance (after trammel) UO felucca had a higher PvP player community then before trammel. So your claim felucca was abandoned before Age of Shadows february 2003 (ruined UO felucca) just isnt right.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.