Trammel Ruined UO

Discussion in 'The Kingdoms of Old' started by rschultzy80, Apr 16, 2013.

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  1. Malekin McKracken

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    Creating consequence free environments on either side (or both eventually) is what took out the fear - and the fear is what made us all sit on the edge of our seats with sweaty palms when stepping outside the safety of the town's edge..... what game has ever filled that void since? I like both aspects of game play equally, but I say live and let live to any who choose their own path, some lead to the bank, others to the dungeons. Either way - nobody can deny the physical excitement (and yes, even frustration) they experienced - weather it be the concur over a boss, defeat of another player, crafting a truly magnificent piece, obtaining some rare and treasured collectable, or loosing that gear you worked so hard for - they ignited us, infuriated us, made us laugh and scream aloud - and it brought us back time and time again...... let's all acknowledge the friendships forged and foe's we loved to hate.

    I HAVE THE HIGHEST HOPE THAT SOTA CREATES NEW LEVELS OF PASSION TO FIRE YOUR DEBATES FOR YEARS TO COME!!!
     
  2. Trenyc

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    That road goes two ways. I had some great, exciting PvP moments in UO, but for every one of those I had, I had ten moments on my miner / blacksmith that caused me to just sigh and log off because it was frustrating losing hauls when there was nothing whatsoever I could do to stop it. Happened, too, that my mage with nothing at all worth looting anyway was steamrolled by a minimum of six reds killing everything in sight through every level of every dungeon in the game. In other words, on my server at least, the problem was prevalent.

    After maybe a few months of playing the live game, I became desensitized to the fear and excitement of PvP. If I chose to PvP by choice, it was because I knew the people involved and it was more of a friendly competition than anything. That wasn't at all scary or twitchy since none of us were especially awesome at PvP (no one was back then) and since there was no voice chat yet. The rest of the time, if a group of reds would show up, I would just stop doing anything at all and just stand there. There was no point in doing anything else because I never--not once, not ever--was prepared for PvP when they, looking for people to gank, would find me. Those times weren't scary. They weren't anxious. They weren't fun. They were bloody annoying, and more often than not they resulted in me just logging off. Sometimes that was my only option, like when purposefully scout the surrounding area and kill all the Wandering Healers and post a guard at the closest shrine (if there was one).
     
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  3. rune_74

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    I think at this point it really doesn't matter what killed UO. Dwelling on it and trying to shape this game into some predefined version of UO that they prefered should not be what this game is about. They are not trying to create UO2.

    Lets instead focus on the future of this game and leave the name calling and bullying of peoples playstyles out of it. I really wish this thread was never revived.

    I guess in some ways after a PVP release it is expected to see a resurgance of these types of threads. Dissappointing though.
     
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  4. Bulveigh

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    IMHO trammel didnt ruin UO. It dramaticly changes uo, but it was still a fantastic game!AoS ruined UO for me....


    There is a reason why Fel was a "ghost town" after trammel got housing(yea.. i know.. there where still player.. but.. common ;))... I remember that i read a artikle about the user trend in UO before and after trammel. And it sayed before trammel the registrations where goin down and after trammel they going up zu 250k (an all time peak)... I dont remember where i read that, so beleve it or not.. whatever ;)

    EDIT:
    "no trammel" freshards like UO Forever..... I dont like what they are like! Everyone is a PvP'ler cause the non PvP'lers dont like that shard, and PK's everywhere. When UO was the only real good MMO, the players had no chance... But with new upcomming less hardcore games, they had to do something or they loose the non PvP'ers..
     
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  5. Sire Lancelot

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    Although a different genre Eve is the closest to fill the void for me.
     
  6. Malekin McKracken

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    @Rune_77 --- All apologies if you are disappointed - the thread was for kingdoms of old ----- post was more or less just reminiscent thoughts of earlier days. Honestly, the common thread for me (and I hope for us all) is that I see SOTA as something completely new, just as I did for the "old Kingdoms" when they first emerged on the scene- innovative, ground breaking in ways, and a fresh approach that has incorporated totally new mechanics. I wouldn't want a copy paste V2 - and I don't think that is the direction SOTA is going. Personally, I didn't find Treyc's comments offensive, and can even empathize with some of it....and if anyone took offense to mine - it was un-intended. At the end of the day we each take experience of things in our own ways - and in this case it is due to the games we love to play, isn't that wonderfully amazing?
     
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  7. Sire Lancelot

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    There is a lot to learn from the longest running MMO in history. Critiquing every element of that game is whats going to make this one even more awesome!
     
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  8. Trenyc

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    People feel pretty passionate about the diminishing of UO's subscriber base, so naturally they try to assign blame. The numbers tell a very different story from what most of these people assume.

    9/1997: UO's launch
    -- Start, 0 subs
    10/1998: T2A's launch (Lost Lands)
    -- ~90,000 subs
    5/2000: Renaissance's launch (Trammel)
    -- ~130,000 subs
    7/2001: Third Dawn's launch (3D client, Champions)
    -- ~190,000 subs
    2/2002: Lord Blackthorn's Revenge launch (Ilshenar, Champion spawns modified to provide no-loot PvP for participants in Felucca)
    -- ~225,000 subs
    2/2003: Age of Shadows (Malas, Necromancy, Chivalry)
    -- ~225,000 subs
    2/2004: OSI disbanded by EA, EA takes over development of UO
    -- ~225,000 subs
    11/2004: Samurai Empire (Tokuno Islands, Ninjitsu, Bushido)
    -- ~125,000 subs
    8/2005: Mondain's Legacy (Elves, Spellweaving)
    -- ~125,000 subs
    8/2006: Nothing special
    -- ~115,000 subs
    8/2007: Nothing special
    -- ~100,000 subs
    8/2008: Artifacts were added to champion rewards
    -- ~100,000 subs
    9/2009: Stygian Abyss (Gargoyles, Underworld/Abyss, Imbuing, Mysticism, other nonsense)
    -- ~100,000 subs - This is the last subscriber base number I can find published

    These numbers represent only a partial picture of what happened with UO because EA began running promotions in attempts to revitalize the player base at various points. These promotions included free game time for players, blessing scrolls, special pets, and other stuff that just generally angered players. Still, it's pretty clear here that Trammel wasn't the problem with UO's declining subscriber base. In fact, UO's subscriber numbers grew for almost two full years after the introduction of Trammel.

    It wasn't until EA dissolved OSI and took over development of UO in 2004 that subscriber numbers sank like lead. As EA drove their wacky, badly targeted development trends, subscriber numbers continued to sink.

    Seems pretty obvious to me that UO stopped growing because EA turned it in a super-generic, not-at-all Ultima direction, and loyal subscribers just gave up when the developers to whom they were loyal were taken off the project.

    Also, some Counselors filed a class action suit against EA in 2002 (settled in 2004) because labor laws required they be paid for the services they provided. That whole mess left a bad taste in lots of mouths.
    X
     
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  9. Maus Merryjest

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    I still am in awe of Electronic Arts' ability to essentially kill good things. EA disbands OSI, and WHAM, membership drops almost in half over a year.

    And the people that took over clearly had NO clue about what Ultima was about.
    In fact, I have a very strong example of that--- Now, I am sure that people do not like to speak of free shards around here, and I completely understand why. However, to illustrate this I must use this example, and you will see why.

    There was a free shard, which I will not identify- but it also does not exist anymore- that was created to recreate a more authentic Ultima experience than what EA was doing-- it stuck to the lore of Britannia as established by the games, and then players also elaborated some details and added their own bits and bobs.

    There was one particular time-traveling plot that happened, where people traveled to Old Sosaria. Well, one of the things I contributed was that where the town of Trinsic stood today, it had once been a small feudal territory of the Ondarivas, the family from which my character descended and who had a long story associated with the city. Now, at this time period the family was divided into two bands- one of them was a ruthless warlord, Belo Ondarivas. Ultimately, the players helped the other band take precedent and Belo and his clansmen were slain. And many of the cobblestones that adorn Trinsic today came from his castle.

    Does the name sound familiar? It probably is, if you were a player during the Samurai expansion.

    See, I had to absent myself for a long time from the shard, but once I came back, I got the following message:

    Friend1: Did you ever hear about Ultima Online stealing a part of your character history for their whole samurai expansion?"

    I went... what? I immediately asked for an explanation, of course, they reply:

    Friend2: "What I recall is that someone found the Ultima Timeline (ours) and assumed it was canon. They lifted the part about Ondarivas "

    Friend1: "The people in charge of plotline at UO must've googled for "Ultima + Timeline" and used OURS when they decided the plot of Samurai Empire. They used Belo Ondariva as a warlord in one of their plotlines, but according to the people I talked to about it, they let the plot finish really really quickly after I made the Stratics community aware it was not an original story."


    This is the original entry in the shard's timeline webpage:

    [235 P.B.]
    In the Lands of the Feudal Lords, a bloodthirsty warlord known as 'Belo Ondariva' rises his house to power and threatens to conquer all the lands. Through several battles the Ondarivas are defeated by a brief alliance of Rondorin and Barataria. Belo and the other bloodthirsty Ondarivan's are slain by a good hearted faction from their own family. Some survivors of the good Ondarivan faction flee to the Lands of Lord British.

    Of course, the original UO updates have vanished, since they're about seven years old now, but UO wiki preserved it:

    BNN: A Disturbing Report

    A Disturbing Report
    Emmith, Royal Aide Jan 7 2005 10:19PM
    The Guard battle in the ruined houseHonoured Lords and Ladies, Members of the Council...
    It is with a heavy heart that I bring this report to your attention, but I fear I must. A new presence threatens the very peace of Britannia! Even now, I see the confusion crossing your faces, so I shall start at the beginning.
    The Commander summoned the Royal Guard to the Castle to witness the meeting with Odric. I understand he approached this Council offering to help locate Dupre. We have had dealings with this fellow before; he would be one to watch. But, we have not heard from Lord Dupre in some time now...
    Odric appeared after several minutes, quashing the doubts of the Commander and the Guard as to his intentions. He assured them that his resources and contacts were trustworthy. He asked if the Commander would accompany him to a meeting, where he had arranged for Dupre's confidant to be. Grudgingly, she agreed and she and the guard followed Odric through a gate and to a ruined sandstone house.
    It was here that they waited... and waited...
    At length, the Commander ordered the Royal Guard to spread out and comb the area for anything unusual. Odric seemed at a loss as to where his contact might be. Suddenly, the Guard encountered a creature - a Relentless Tracker. Several of these creatures then appeared and attacked the Guard fiercely, causing several to be injured quite severely.
    As ever, the Guard showed the strength of their training and defeated the murderous beasts. As they regathered, Odric expressed concern for his contact, and after some pressing from the Commander, revealed the name - Malabelle. The Commander showed some surprise at this news, as she was previously acquainted with Malabelle. Fearing for her safety, the Commander ordered the Guard to gather the wounded, and took them to Malabelle's home in Yew.
    Seeing all was quiet, the Commander broke into a run as they drew near. Rushing inside, they found the home completely ransacked. Out of nowhere, more Trackers appeared and attacked the Guard. Yet again, the Guard worked together and quickly dispatched the foul beasts.
    Fearing the worst, the Commander gathered the weary Guard and they traveled to the location of a known safe house near Vesper. It was here she hoped to find either Malabelle or Dupre, perhaps both. However, it was not to be...
    As the Guard entered one of the small huts, they were greeted by the sight of Malabelle's lifeless body splayed on the ground and a strangely armoured figure looming over her. He carried a bloodied spear that bore the name Black Dragon. This fearsome figure, dressed in blood-red armour of a strange origin, identified himself as one Belo Ondariva... a Warlord!
    The Commander's face went white at the sight. The Guard expressed their horror, to which Belo laughed and stated, "I will trample on the backs of your fleeing comrades as I pillage this bloated land."
    "Your families will be enslaved, and I will build my strongholds out of their bones", he said, raising his spear menacingly.
    To which the Commander bravely told him, "I think not!".
    The Warlord laughed, "Screeching monkeys, your loose tongues will wash my boots when I return."
    The Commander quickly decreed that he should pay for this act of violence.
    And again the Warlord laughed cruelly, "You are already my servants, as you now go forth to herald my coming. Tell them all!"
    And then he simply disappeared.
    Chaos then broke forth, with more of the Relentless Trackers appearing, ripping through the ranks of the Guard as easily as through cloth. Shaking herself, the Commander gathered the Guard to her and they gallantly fought the creatures until none were left standing. After the battle, the Commander gathered the wounded and took all the survivors back to Britain, whereupon she ordered them into the care of the healer’s guild.
    So my Lords and Ladies, it would appear there is a new threat upon us in the form of this Warlord, Belo Ondariva. I fear for the safety of Dupre if he was able to get to Malabelle so easily. We must be on our guard and strengthen our defence points. Who knows what course of action this Warlord will take? Only time shall tell...



    Well, I laughed at the whole thing, finding it both sad and mildly amusing. Then I realized something:

    The people in charge of Ultima Online must really not know anything about Ultima if they're googling for Ultima's history. And they obviously did not have series bibles, or they must have been the most incomplete things ever. There's a difference between a franchise taking fan fiction and knowingly using it as canon out of appreciation for the fans... and using it as canon because they have no clue whatsoever about the franchise itself... and Electronic Arts has squarely been in the second category with every franchise they have acquired and subsequently mangled.


    With that kind of Derp Patrol at the wheel, is it any surprise that it killed Ultima Online's membership as well?
     
  10. Aerowynn

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    Lancelots, I agree - EvE was the closest thing I've found to the way UO was.
    Also, disclaimer; I just pledged and joined the community, so I apologize if a few of my points are already made or are not entirely accurate.
    That being said, I think the primary takeaway from EvE should be this:

    Destruction drives a player-run economy

    I've read so far that the economy is supposed to be almost entirely player-driven. The problem therein is that without a way to loose large amounts of equipment quickly, the vast number of people interested in crafting are quickly going to find themselves out of business. I'm not sure how the market will absorb what I'm sure is going to be a large volume of player-produced equipment.
    I loved EvE and old UO, because people simply wore (or flew, in EvE) equipment that was affordable, and that could be replaced by the player base. I did enjoy UO for years after trammel was introduced as well, so I'm not jumping on the post bandwagon. I would argue that crafting basically died after a time with trammel. Without some sort of equipment loss mechanism (and at a relatively short period at that), I worry that the economy wont be as it is envisioned.
     
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  11. mindmage44

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    Life before trammel was the best and most realistic. You lived by a code and that is what made the game special. Are you a murder killing players? Are you a player who engages on man hunts to find these killers? Are you a person who helped fund, or supply this man hunt? You played a role in the world back then. Danger was always around the next corner. You could be who ever you wanted, and play how ever you wanted. You needed people, counted on friends and allies. People worked together to change the virtual world for the better or worse. There was a tighter alliance of players. It was a grand vision of a game, which is what made it the best massively multi-player game of all time. A world with out limits or boundaries.

    When trammel hit, a world was divided. Everything changed. One world was left vacant, lifeless, a game-style left in ruins leaving players trapped in a prison. As players acquired more items/loot/resources without a challenge, things began to change. As the market began to flood in with massive amounts of gold, items and resources people began to become self-sufficient. Gold began to loose its value, player crafted items became easier to get. Everything became less rewarding. Communities divided as players began forming smaller and smaller guilds/communities. Towns became less populated with the exception of people casting gates and spamming to go see there vendors.

    In a nutshell, if nothing is lost ever... everyday everything looses value, one click at a time. Its the real world aspect and danger that keeps us helping each other out from the dangers of the world. Who wants to live in a world where the worst thing you can encounter is a monster with a IQ of 10? You need these player killers in the game, they are a part of the game. Let them dry loot us all day. Its a part of the economy, danger, world lore, epic battles, revenge, and anything else you can tie to it.

    So you know this is coming from a player that has never killed another player in Ultima Online. I have been killed and looted a zillion times. How do I feel about this subject? Stand up, dust yourself off, get another harvesting tool, and get back to work.
     
  12. Artariel

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    Well this linear timeline is not the correct way to analyze UO's subs versus expansions. Because there is an important factor of internet usage throughout the world in the beginning of 2000s. The increase between 2000 and 2004 totally reflects the increased usage of dial-up 56k or broadband internet access in several countries, not only in USA. Having an internet connection for personal usage was a really really expensive and hard thing to acquire back then in most of the EU countries. There are lots of factors regarding the usage of internet, online shopping, credit cards etc.. Therefore we can't directly assume that "look, uo subs increased with UOR", it's a correct statement but it shouldn't imply that Renaissance directly caused it. But I agree that EA destroyed probably the most important MMORPG in gaming history with their destructive ideas, only in a few years.
     
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  13. tekkamansoul

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    Yes, pre Trammel, the glory years.
    You could be anything: a PK, a PKK, or... a target.

    Truly the best simulation evur.
     
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  14. Robby

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    I hear ya.

    But forget about players bringing that level of challenge for a moment. Shouldn't be toooo hard to create NPC spawn that murder, pk, and loot in a more controlled way. You see a number of players aren't going to participate in that kind of thing. =( Im sure it was an amazing time pre trammel and all. But since optional PvP now has ruled the MMO world since it was introduced its time for something new.. Some new way to bring the kind of pre trammel experience you describe there to those who want it, and bring the post-trammel experience to those who want to play there game that way without dividing the world.
    The reason some dont like the open full loot pvp is because of gank squads. Theres so much risk in an open full loot pvp world, and its really fun and exciting, but all too often its not risk its "no challenge". If you get zapped before you can even hit recall its just kind of old and redundant after awhile. So we need new mechanics to prevent that sort of thing.
    I dont think its really the full loot and the risk and the danger thats the turn off for most players. I think its the idea that often you dont stand a chance AT ALL! Im sure many many players are more than willing to once in awhile hop into a dangerous place where things are at risk and challenges are great. But they wont do it unless there in the mood. And also... theres the player factor to it, some people are real put off by the idea a player grabbed their loot and murdered them which is why I propose a full loot pvp NPC monster idea for those who dont like that idea. Its especially bad when the murderer taunts and "teabags" and stuff(Not for me though, it just amps me up and makes me want to find some way of getting back at the one doing it. So I just laugh when im slayed and tea bagged but not everyones the same).
    So yea, lets find a way to bring on the experience you describe above to the fullest for all of us who want it but also maintain the maximum amount of player subscribers. The trammel and felucca seperation certainly did ruin the game for some. It didnt totally ruined it for me, it just sort of felt "watered down" for me but twas still a fun game. We need to find the best compromise that we can. We cant go around saying that trammel completely ruined UO in every way, its not real constructive at all. Unless we compromise and cooperate with all player types we are going to be stuck with the watered down MMO gaming where your either in one facet or the other.
     
  15. mindmage44

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    They did mention something about how in a PvP Zone the you have a better chance at harvested materials. Which is fine except what you are talking about, which is a gank squad. Wouldn't be that hard for a group of people to control those zones while their (guild member crafters) mine up the good stuff or, get items at a faster rate due to (Risk vs Reward) even though it won't be a risk. With a open world pvp, they can't be everywhere at once =).

    It kinda sucks for the people who are not in this (group/guild/community) that control these spots in the game. Either your in, or your out. With anybody from chesapeak who played back when they brought in powerscrolls remember. The guild called C.H.A.M.P.S. it was almost impossible to complete any champion spawn once they took over.
     
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  16. Dean478

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    What those stats don't show is that while subscriber numbers continued to increase, even after Trammel, the clientele changed. For every two people that joined and enjoyed Trammel, one left because they didn't. This had a huge influence on future online games.

    And even now with a "spiritual successor to the Ultima series" we're still not returning to that previous gameplay mechanic. Trammel might not have "ruined" UO, but it certainly changed it dramatically and lead to other games adopting similar mechanics. Which, for those of us who enjoyed the realistic open world danger, it ruined that experience for us.
     
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  17. Trenyc

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    I think between the Trammel shift, the NGE in SWTOR, the changes made to DAoC, and the fits people threw when WoW put out new expansions that offered better green gear than the epics people previously had, the industry learned an important lesson, which is not to pull the rug out from under your existing player base. But UO, DAoC, and WoW all survived their messups. It's not fair to claim that everyone who's ever played Ultima Online absolutely likes open PvP better than the Trammel / Felucca ruleset. I'm sure that change did mix up the player base, though.
     
  18. Dean478

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    I should clarify that I wasn't trying to say the entire clientele changed. But it definitely did change in some proporition. :)
     
  19. Ravenwing

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    ONCE AND FOR ALL.

    Trammel did not kill UO.

    The asshat griefer player in all of his self justifying excuses to prey on the helpless were killing UO, all Trammel did was to give the player base a choice. That choice saved UO for many years more popularity and the duper speed hacker house fighter got bored and moved on to exploit someone else.
     
  20. Doletron

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    I would like to say that PvP shouldn't be forced, at least not at all times. PvP settings should be risk vs reward based. If you don't want to PvP and stay under the protection of the guards, that is fine. But all those wonderful mats and mobs with high level loot would not be accessible. This would not force people to PvP, but at least be on their toes if they want higher end materials or loot. Now as far as player loot drops, I feel that there should be a random value drop for items. This would further be evaluated based off of the difference of player level and who started the battle. For instance, say a level 1 character managed to Get a super rare sword worth a value of 100. If a character that was level 100 that attacked and killed them, the sword would not drop because the level difference. He could get something only worth 1 value (value 1% of level), say 1 gold would drop. But if there was a character level 1 that killed the guy with the sword, there would be a chance to drop the sword because they are the same level. The value can be an accumulation of items as well, say gold and a lessor weapon valued at X. (Value 100%). Now if the level 1 character managed to kill the player that was 100, the value of the kill would be 10000%, so dont be super high level and die to noobs. Lastly, a punishment for people killing off people can be done. 1 could be the murder system like they did in UO. Another can be the aggressor drops all items upon death. Any thoughts on this idea?
     
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