Ultima Online, Pre Trammel - The "Good Ol' Days"?

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Phredicon, Apr 18, 2013.

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  1. Phredicon

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    I have a sincere question for those people who agree with the topic title:

    What is missing from today's Ultima Online shards that makes it not the "perfect" PvP game to play?

    It seems to me like many people have posted that they want this game to be "just like UO before it was ruined with Trammies" or "full PvP, Full Loot, Full PK like UO pre AOS", etc. etc. With the availability of numerous freeshards, modded any one of a dozen ways, that have exactly the same feeling, heck the same GAME, as those ideal times - what's not there?

    I know quite a few people have said they <i>DO</i> play on the various UP servers exactly because it is "still the best PvP game ever made" but that begs the question of why a new game is needed to fill that role. What are you looking for here that is not there?

    Thanks!
     
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  2. Ultima Aficionado

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    @Phredicon:

    There are a number of reasons that a free or player run server is not the same as an official server. Ultima Online was, without a doubt, the best game in existence when it first came out. It was a revolutionary game and a brand sparked the MMORPG genre.

    The things that made Ultima Online so great was the sense of "true" adventure. Adventure is intended to be a thrilling experience. The best analogy I can come up is that it's similar to the days when pirates roamed the ocean. Times were dangerous and you had to be prepared to be raided by a pirate. Here's a link that might provide some insight into those times: http://looterslair.com/

    Every MMORPG since has catered to Everquest style players. The carebears on the forums have even diminished PVP in some games like WoW, although the majority of the playerbase still plays on PVP servers. There has been no game excluding Darkfall, Eve, and Mortal (I'm forgetting a few) which have dared to experiment beyond that predictable pattern. WoW is repetitive and essentially is a mindless grind for gear. It offers no competition or risk. It is boring.

    The problem with free servers is that the game is indeed 20 years old. It isn't that the formula isn't still fun and entertaining, in fact, it's better than many MMORPGS of today (IMO). But, the game is 15 years old don't forget. The fascinating thing is that people continue to play it to this day. But, 15 years of anything can get a bit old -- it's no wonder why we're looking forward to a new game which can invigorate those types of games with a refreshing, new experience but is a spiritual successor of Ultima Online.
     
  3. Phredicon

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    @UA, thanks and I completely understand what you mean, as I did indeed play UO back in the day. I was just curious what specifically (graphics, gameplay changes, connection improvements, OS compatability, new lands, new weapons, more players, more rules, less rules, etc.) was not in UO that the "make this UO2" players wanted to see.

    I do agree it is amazing the staying power UO, as well as all of the Ultima RPG's, have shown over the decades!
     
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  4. Owain

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    I played on one of the free UO shards, and enjoyed it, but it was purely a nostalgia trip. If the UO as it was on release was updated to a modern 3D engine, it would be awesome, but it might only draw a niche audience. This is why I have high hopes for SotA. It won't be UO3D, but for OPO open PvP play, I hope it will be the next best thing.
     
  5. Ara

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    @Phredicon - I use pre-AoS (Age of Shadows was added to UO february 2003) alot and to me and many other oldschool felucca PvP players it was the final nail. The patch that very effectively destroyed felucca as we knew it.

    Age of Shadows implemented insurance and removed full loot.

    Age of Shadows implemented overpowered rare weapons that unbalanced PvP and removed playerskill as the foundation of success in a 1 vs 1. The one equipped with a overpowered weapon, armor or trinket usually won 100 out of 100 even if he was fighting a player with higher skills. These rare weapons were found through PvE.

    Age of Shadows demanded that the ones that had been playing the UO PvP game for 6 years had to enter dungeons as the new Doom one and grind monsters 24/7 to be compeatable. The old crafted weapons and armor was worthless after AoS.

    Age of Shadows removed more or less the need for crafters since crafters created very poor armor and weapons compared to the ones found in PvE areas.

    Age of Shadows created new classes and new skills that completely changed UO PvP.

    Age of Shadows was a deliberat attack from EA towards felucca and it's PvP oriented players. Felucca became mainly a PvE area and also a very dead area.

    I and so many with me have searched for a new MMO worth playing since then. 10 years of just about only themepark games, unbelivable.

    Lets hope SotA deliver a game for us that's been out of any options for just about 10 years now.
     
  6. Illesac

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    +1 @Ara - Speak the truth to these <strike>carebears</strike> non-PvP'ers
     
  7. Lanatir

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    you guys remind me of conspiracy theorists, thinking 'the man' is after them and their precious pvp.
     
  8. Illesac

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    @Lanatir - Westboro Baptist Church and Rush Limbaugh frequently come to mind when I read <b>some</b> non-PvP posts

    We understand there will be PvP to an extent but don't want a world with floaties. If you can't swim, you drown or learn to swim.
     
  9. Lanatir

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    Did you just seriously compare players who dont want to pvp with the westboro baptist church? really?
     
  10. Illesac

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    I'm glad you see the ridiculousness of your previous post now.
     
  11. Lanatir

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    lets see. Ara wrote, and i QUOTE.

    Age of Shadows was a deliberat attack from EA towards felucca and it?s PvP oriented players. Felucca became mainly a PvE area and also a very dead area.

    That sounds VERY much like a conspiracy theory to me.


    YOU comparing non pvp players to some bigotry fascist fanatic religious organisation is trolling. But seriously. lets just agree that you and me dont stand on the same grounds. man, i dont ever want to see you in game, in real life, or even here on the forums anymore. so please, write your posts, and guess what. no matter where i will go in game, even if its your own damn bedroom .. YOU CANT SEE ME!
     
  12. Illesac

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    Don't so mad there non-PvPer. **pats head**

    Gordon Walton even admitted that it was a pure financial decision to appease the non-PvPer so he could keep his awesome plush job. In case you missed the interview I put the link below there for ya buddy! If I ever saw you in the streets I'd ask if you wanted to a beer because I realize that this is a game, something that is lost on a lot of people it seems these days.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOTVcrb-sOE
     
  13. Ristra

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    "The game really actually brought fear into people that I have never seen, the cities were safe" "Well sometimes"

    From there the interview is a bunch of romanticizing of player ingenuity to get around the intended design.

    It was made very clear that people did not enjoy being the target of that ingenuity. Some did, but enough did not to the point that a financial decision was needed.

    The most important thing said in that interview was the "1st love MMO" We all have fond memories of that MMO that got us hooked. For those that have UO and the open PvP as their 1st love it's understandable that they wish for that game play again.

    The other side is those players that were repelled to find their 1st love in a different MMO. They don't want that "1st hate" to show up again.
     
  14. Ultima Aficionado

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    @Ristra:

    Please do not take this as any offense to you or anyone else. However, why would someone whose first love was another game similar to WoW even be interested in a sandbox style game created as a spiritual successor to Ultima Online?

    I'm sure there are a few reasons for this:
    *They think they are missing out on some experience they cannot have in WoW.
    *They enjoyed the Ultima series and are primarily interested in the single player aspect of the game.
    *They think for some inconceivable reason a game that is a spiritual successor to Ultima Online cannot be successful.
    --Please remember Ultima Online had 50,000 people in the beta alone and expected 10,000. Also, other games have been extremely successful and are still around today. Think Command and Conquer, Final Fantasy, etc. These games all have very similar formulas and do excellent in the market. Why couldn't a spiritual successor to Ultima Online be successful as well?
     
  15. Ristra

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    @Ultima Aficionado, I am in no way offended by a dialog.

    <i>... interested in a sandbox style game created as a spiritual successor to Ultima Online?</i>

    This is some what of a narrowing of what SotA represents.

    <i>Shroud of the Avatar is the ?spiritual successor? to Richard?s previous work in the FRP genre. Our primary objectives are to tell a story even more compelling than Ultimas IV-VII, create a virtual world more interactive than Ultima VII, develop deep rich multi-player capabilities beyond combat akin to Ultima Online, and offer a bold new approach to integrate them with ?Selective Multi-Player?.</i>

    Many are here, not because of MMO's at all, but because of the love of Richard Garriotts work with the single player games. I, for one, always wished to be able to play Ultima 4-7 with friends in a co-op multiplayer setting.

    I enjoy MMO's too, so that's a bonus.
     
  16. Ultima Aficionado

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    @Ristra:

    Yeah, I loved the single player Ultimas as well. That's why I'm glad they're releasing a stand-alone, single player game as well as the multiplayer mode.
     
  17. Ristra

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    RG had many releases under the Ultima world. He had time to hone the design. If you ask each Ultima series fan which one is their favorite, you will get a full range of results.

    Ultima Online has release, though, you could count the expansions as a new release to hone the design.

    If you ask UO fans what "release" is their favorite, I would have to guess it doesn't get more popular with age.

    The major thing I see is the rich living world of the series now will be improved by UO's sand box. Plus, they are adding tools to aid in the sand box play.
     
  18. Silent Strider

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    @Illesac:

    It's interesting how different people get different aspects from the same interview/chat/whatever that Markee Dragon video was.

    What I got from the video is that:

    - Leaving the systems open created a huge amount of unintended consequences, some good, some bad. The good ones made for an unique experience still unmatched today.

    - The bad consequences, though, were far more visible. As Gordon Walton points, they actually scared other MMO developers, including those at SOE and Blizzard, into making their own MMO offerings a more controlled experience, even if they had to limit player freedom and throw away the good consequences of that freedom in order to achieve that control.

    - Rich Vogel mentioned that the open nature of the game generated a huge amount of support work, which means more ongoing costs for the game.

    - The open nature also made bugs far more damaging to the player base, since they could be exploited not merely to grant power to the cheater, but to make the experience miserable for other players. As Gordon Walton pointed, every cheater created an almost direct negative financial impact for the game.

    - As Gordon Walton said, UO had a far higher number of sociopaths and psychopaths than any other MMO, likely because UO gave those people the tools to hurt other players, and rewarded them for doing so.

    - As Rich Vogel pointed, UO had a large churn rate; players would become interested, start playing, and quickly leave because they became targets to more experienced players, and most of them didn't find that fun. Even Markee Dragon had a similar experience with a friend that left after being PKed once and never returned.

    - The amount of freedom also meant that the game was not appropriate for minors. In other MMOs minors might be subject to some trash talking; in UO a griefer could kill a minor's pet, skin it, and give back the meat to the minor just to make him cry. Not appropriate to minors means a smaller potential player base, and thus smaller revenues.

    - Markee Dragon loves that kind of chaotic, free-form gameplay, and directed the conversation according to that. To be fair, how he conducted the conversation seems to merely reflect his preferences, without any ulterior motivations, but it does create some bias.


    Hopefully, SotA, as currently described by Chris and RG, should be able to provide the illusion of chaotic fun for those that enjoy that kind of gameplay, while playing like a more controlled experience for those that don't thrive in the chaos of open PvP.
     
  19. lordrex

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    @Phredicon: "What is missing from today?s Ultima Online shards that makes it not the ?perfect? PvP game to play? With the availability of numerous freeshards, modded any one of a dozen ways, that have exactly the same feeling, heck the same GAME, as those ideal times ? what?s not there?"

    If there were truly a shard like pre-trammel with 200,000 users on it i would play that game every day for the rest of my life. this will never happen. that's why we think Richard is the only person on earth that can make another one.

    this is very important to understand. it becomes a violence on tap griefing gankfest if there aren't enough players. you should be able to play the games with your friends for a week and run into pks maybe 5-7 times and maybe die once or twice to those pks in that duration. thats a decent ratio of game time to pk time. as a pk, it makes things challenging, exciting, creative, meaningful. for the hunted, it feels like it would in the wild west, where you always had to worry about bandits as a part of life but you didnt run into them every time you got in your wagon.

    (NOTE: my answer applies to PK and not PVP. PK was FUBAR as soon as EA started getting trigger happy with skewed user feedback. PVP was never broken in Ultima Online from a rules perspective, but the game dynamics changed to an item based game which made it less fun. that said, i dont think that the PVP issue has anything to do with the intention of your post so i am interpreting it as PK. i would also like to add that aside from the item based combat fail, PVP in UO today is superior to anything it was back when i played it. Just go to Yew moongate and you get violence on tap 12 years after that trend started)

    the point of player killing it to replace grinding the AI with socializing with players. no players, no fun. what ended up happening with ultima online was that all the cool players quit and all the griefers remained to beat the dead horse.
     
  20. Silent Strider

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    @lordrex

    You don't need 200K players on a single shard. Pre-trammel UO never had even close to that both because it only reached 200K players after Trammel was introduced, and already had it's player base divided in multiple shards even back then.

    With the instancing system being proposed for SotA, my guess is that 20K to 30K PvPers regularly playing the game would already be enough to have as similar a feeling to old UO as is possible nowadays, when the "sheep" always have the option to move to other games where they aren't hunted, something that wasn't really available back in the "good old days" of pre-trammel UO.
     
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