Virtuous PvP

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Kain3, Jan 3, 2014.

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  1. Kain3

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    Thats a rather flat and off-the-hand interpretation of what is posted in the OP. Its not RP, its a way to apply Virtues not just in PvE but also in PvP. The section of the community you belong to the Anti-Virtues which are Deceit, Despise, Dastard, Wrong, Covetous, Shame, Hyloth, Pride. Think of them as an alignment system. How does that influence the game? Well this what we should talk about, not how awesome some people are here in PvP and how they kill and loot and love it. Also, in case you havent noticed this is still a Role Playing Game (RPG), so RP is part of it whether you PvP or PvE.
     
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  2. E n v y

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    ......And that's my point, every PvPer/PK reading that is thinking "really??.....alignment system??.......oh screw it let's go kill another player"
     
  3. vjek

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    In your opinion, Envy, in what third person perspective, fantasy themed, persistent multiplayer online game, developed in North America, is this currently true, today?
     
  4. Kain3

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    Not if there is something to gain. I mean a PKr without people to PK is basically nothing. Incentives to PvP other than just to kill some guy and loot might make PvP less flat....and YES it IS flat the way you describe it. You might as well go play Planetside 2 while you are at it and skip the game. That way of thinking is why PvP sucks in games today even the "hardcore" full loot ones.
     
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  5. Umbrae

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    The virtue system will be there. Anyone may ignore it I am sure, but the goal was for your interaction and actions to have weight and thus the world would respond to you in-kind. This is a RPG, so role-playing is a part of it. There are plenty of storyless, competitive shooters and action RPGs out there, but in this game your action are supposed to matter and the story is supposed to matter. If you all you care about is a kill counter then I think the main point of Ultima was lost.

    I have no problem with people that say "F-that, I am just going to kill people", but there should still be an impact and the world should treat you accordingly. The best system is one that you barely know its there until you realized that maybe you should have done something a little different. It should just read your actions and judge them.

    "Thou hast lost an eighth!"
     
  6. rune_74

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    Wouldn't a better game for that be a FPS or something? I mean it seems silly to waste a world that's created around you if the only thing you see is death matches.
     
  7. E n v y

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    I never say that's all the game should be. The nice thing about UO was that it contained all elements as I'm sure SotA will. For me, it's about the PvP the crafting and selling......will I do the story?... Probably over time but it won't be my main objective unless it has to be for some reason.

    The game and gameplay means very different things to a variety of people. People shouldn't fear PvP because to tell the truth, those who don't like it are very unlikely to ever see someone like me in the game..... This is part of the point of selective multiplayer.

    I think all I'm trying to say is that I fully respect how people want integrate 'virtues' into the game and create stories and content surrounding it. It's just if a thread is created that kind of attracts the attention of PvPers/PKs, don't be suprised when one actually responds (me) and basically says........."what the hell are you guys on about.....we kill people, that's what we do, we don't even consider or even think about virtues".
     
  8. Kain3

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    But thats what the Anti-Virtues are about. The opposite of Virtues. Isnt it time PvP had an actual meaning? That something more than "thrill" and "loot" ? I believe its long overdue.
     
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  9. Umbrae

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    Well, Evil does rarely consider the consequences or at most could care less about them. ;)

    I would not say PVPers so globally. This is the type of PVP I enjoy: where someone creates a thoughtful character and plays that character into conflicts. I doubt I am alone in that.

    I have problems understanding why people who only care about kill counts play an RPG: except to find "easy targets" who are trying to RP thus not defending as quickly as someone living only for conflict. This may really be the core of many PVP/PVE arguments which is not so much about play-styles as much as game-styles. Its not that a game like this can not support all playstyles, but if it is an RPG it should have RPG mechanics. Alignment/Virtues systems in one of those RPG-core rulesets.
     
  10. E n v y

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    Meaning to a PvPer = Thrill & Loot
    Meaning to an RPer = Death & Looted
     
  11. Kain3

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    Whatever makes you feel good, mate, but this is exactly the reason why PvP as well as full loot is not popular these days and dont ever take off to become a solid mechanic. People think 2D...some times even 1D. Thank you for proving my point of how badly PvP in this game needs a way to integrate the Virtues system to make it more appealing, interesting and solid :).

    EDIT: Do you know what RP-PvP is Envy? Its more interesting that what you believe PvP is about.
     
  12. E n v y

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    I think if your topic has been 'Virtuous RP PvP', I probably wouldn't have even posted in the thread. You attracted a Hardcore PvPer in here and now you don't like if because I disagree with the kind of things you say.

    EDIT:

    Actually it's not that I disagree.....it's just that it is meaningless to me.
     
  13. PrimeRib

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    Again, it just doesn't work. You have a system which "does a really good job RPing evil" and "toxic player" go in the same bucket. And that's exactly what any good vs. evil system does.

    To made the system work, all sides have to play by more or less the same rules with more or less symmetric outcomes.
     
  14. Kain3

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    No RP-PvP isnt the topic here, but it is a different way of how PvP can be enjoyable and meaningful (other than a Virtue system), but I forgot that you think that RP is dressup, speaking in *Ye Olde English* and playing doll house.

    Read your posts. Especially:

    Meaning to a PvPer = Thrill & Loot
    Meaning to an RPer = Death & Looted

    Thats not "Hardcore", its a caricature of PvP. Even in Planetside 2 the PvP there has more meaning that those two lines in your post, my friend. Also, (and I beg your pardon for pointing it out again) I did state in the OP that the "kill and loot" issue isnt the point of this thread but you really seem way too attached to it. I dont mind you disagreeing with the whole Virtue in PvP concept, but you really offer no alternative on how to make PvP interesting to people outside "loot/kill" aspect of it.

    Eventually when the game launches, and about 6 months into the game people like you will quit because they find noone to gank/PK/PvP(and what not) and say how PvP isnt interesting in this game and how the devs ruined it cause they didnt listen to you. And all of this simply because for you and others like you PvP=k1ll + loot. Its like instant gratification:"I want to kill someone and be awarded for it with his stuff". Seriously, is that all there is to PvP, nothing more, nothing in the rest of the dimensions? No thoughts outside the box? No wonder all MMORPGs look and feel the same: people keep asking the same things over and over and over. And they call them "Clones". :D

    For your information: DaoC applied RvR and people loved it. The Guild versus Guild version of RvR is how RP-PvP works. The RP was there just to enrich the experience. Actually that was the sort of RP guilds had back in UO ;). We even had rules on what sort of gear to use and some guilds were at a disadvantage due to devs tweaking crafting. Still those guilds had wins. Now THATS HardCore. And to close, I doubt that you know, but fact is that being an RPr doesnt class someone as incapable PvPr/victim. I bet many people here know what I talk about and they agree. :D


    Now THATS what I call feedback :). Can you please elaborate? I would appreciate it.



    Exactly and it could dynamically enrich the game.

    I do agree on the fact that how they Virtues can be integrated is a big debate. I did post my idea but what I want to know personally is how the other players think it could be applied in the game.

    As for the Virtues themselves, well I am talking about the objective Virtues, not the subjective ones. If you take a Virtue subjectively you turn it into an Anti-Virtue eventually. Justice for example by killing PKs. But if you kill them repeatedly in a manner of ganking, thats Wrong (the Justice Anti-Virtue).
     
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  15. E n v y

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    You know tens of thousands of people log into COD each week for hours just to run around killing eachother over and over with the same guns. They do it because they enjoy it, it doesn't make it wrong.

    I don't expect you to understand why players like me enjoy the kind of PvP we do. You say that all MMORPGs look the same, well yeah they do because they are all clones of WoW......that's why I've played UO for such a long time, the PvP works.

    Back in the old days of UO, pking was really just a job and another way to make gold in the game.....that's how I started. it evolved into somthing bigger and more challenging. I had other characters back then that I actually did RP on, they used yellow bag systems for loot during PvP, it wasn't for me because I didn't really enjoy the RP part.

    I think its kind of sad that you presume that people like me will quit after 6 months, for me, I have a lot invested in the game and I know that I'm going to enjoy it.......after all as I said before I don't just PvP.

    The reason why I don't offer ideas on how you guys want to PvP is because truthfully we have very different outlooks and it would be highly doubtful I would have anything to offer that would improve your game experience.....we are at different ends of the PvP spectrum if you like.
     
  16. Kain3

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    Comparing COD (FPS) with SotA (Online RPG) is wrong. Sure they are both games, sure you can kill in both, but an FPS has no role play features like statistics. Its just twitch game, trust me, I know. I Play Planetside 2 and love it. But it does lack rpg features. And this is why Im here.

    Yea I remember the bag system. In my shard they used it for pickpocketing too. So you could become rich if you had trained the right skills without the PvP, still looting other players. You say you started with PK and it evolved into something bigger and more challenging, how? Through the RP? Welcome to my world.

    I presumed you and people like you would quit simply because Ive seen it in many games so far, though those were not crowdfunded. Still its a sad probability, probably not for the reasons you suspect.
    In all seriousness if you have any idea to suggest in how the Virtues could be integrated into PvP by all means. If you have a feedback other than: "wont work because PvP=PK+loot" then post it up. if it wont work explain, elaborate about it.
     
  17. Ara

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    But if evil, lets say PK:s, isnt in the game who will your guild defend and be virtuos too?

    Only do PvP then?

    Without evil there is no need for any virtuos or it will just become another watered down PvP system.
     
  18. Doppelganger [MGT]

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    Some of this sounds good in theory, but I just don't see how it could work in a game like this. You could only do it if you base the "rewards" off of ones actions based on their individual karma level. Otherwise I think PvP would have to be kept totally separate from the games virtue system, since it is independent from the stories or plots of the core game.
     
  19. Owain

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    No, you keep his stuff to keep him off the field of battle until he gears back up. It isn't about a thrill, it's tactical necessity.
     
  20. Owain

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    The KGB hasn't had an ideal game environment since UO Siege Perilous, but if there are no PKs, if we come to SotA, there will still be guild wars, and we have fought a number of those.

    For a game based on Virtues, it would be odd indeed if there were no evil, particularly since Richard Garriott has specifically stated that players will be able to be evil, so I'm not terribly concerned at this point.
     
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