We do not have a classless system

We have a one class system. Everyone is an Avatar.

That means everyone has to min/max the same thing to be "best". It means there's very little, if any, specialization.

I know the benefits of a "classless" system.

• You never "mess up" your character or pick the wrong class.
• On one level everyone has access to the same skills and spells so in theory that makes it easier to balance, tweak, and evolve.
• There's never one class that is "best" and dominates the game in PVP or PVE.

Again in theory that's all true. But in practice that's not always how it works, and the end result is that other areas of the game suffer because of this lack of specialization.

• How the hell is someone supposed to play a mage when everyone is a freakin mage? Everyone has resistance to everything? Everyone is a bastardized hybrid tank mage?
• Why is GMing a skill or spell important? What value does that give players when everyone has direct access to the same thing you do, it's just varying degrees of power. For example, celestial blessing is essentially about as powerful as it needs to be at skill level 1. So why should anyone GM that skill, ever?
• Why does it matter if someone is "the best archer" in the game if everyone they come into contact with is also shooting a bow or swapping out a bow whenever they get into range?

I could really go on and on here. But instead, what I'd like to see happen is for the combat skills and spells to evolve and encourage GMing skills and spells to unlock new skills and spells, as well as titles, and perhaps ritual magic, or special crafting recipes (you read that right crafters, you should have to know the spell to be able to craft it!).

Please consider. This would make the game much better than it is now. It would not make it any more difficult to balance than it already is.
@DarkStarr @Chris @Lord British

I want to be a powerful mage. I don't want to be Joe Average Hybrid Tank Avatar.

 

One day, A Halberd shall rule the world.

I am not a mage (on most days )

*makes popcorn sets a timer and waits*

 

Isn't this exactly what people have been saying for literally years?

And im pretty sure its been dismissed by most people on the forums (numerous occasions yourself included) ?


Welcome to realizing the need for specialization that we've been preaching for the longest time.
Once again i feel dirty about it, but i agree with you.
Unfortunately this would involve a huge overhaul of the core of the game, which isn't practical this close to release anymore.

Side note - This also effects crafting for the same reasons, if not just on a longer scale.

 

I and a number of others have been saying this almost since the start... usually to only be shot down and insulted for daring to disagree with the direction the game was headed, and told that our posts (saying almost the exact same thing as you here) were not constructive and if we didn't like it we should quit the game (hmm how many times have I seen that exact same sentiment shared by you, dear BDF?)

Welcome to the last few years...

 

I too would like to see some tangible benefit for getting GM in skills aside from being able to help someone else GM their skills faster (and the reality is this only makes ANY difference for trade skills and super high % reagent consuming skills).

The "problem" of sorts I see is that since we truly don't have any limits... eventually everyone becomes the hybrid mage tank 2.0 with gm skills, too! Combined with decay you truly have a serious problem trying to promote GM or higher skills. I can't think of any useful way around this aside from arbitrary "If you pick this, you can't pick something else" scenarios... That's about the only way I see to prevent everyone from eventually once again being *everything* again.

The only other way I can even remotely fathom without completely dumping the whole game system (and even this would require tweaks) is to *cap* your skills on a per deck basis. The way I envision this would be you could have X skills above 100, and Y skills total to be *counted* for a given combat deck. Possibly changing the Y skills for Y skill trees so that attunement doesn't become a headache. In this fashion, in combination with other incentives to raise skills to 100 and beyond, there would be some actual point to specializing since you're limited in what you can choose and need some more bang for your buck.

Granted I have no idea what would be balanced or how this would realistically work, but I do think the current state of the game where specializing is a 0.001%'er activity because they've got nothing else to level is a serious problem. Probably something to be ironed out after episode 1 goes live when (hopefully) we've got a more finalized product to make meaningful balance changes.

 

What is often lost in the narrative of the peanut gallery is that I have been a loud critic of the combat system on several fronts from the beginning. I was told before the scrum that I was wrong about the design. I was told during the scrum that the design was set and we were only to discuss implemented features. I was then told that I didn't play the game enough to know what needed fixed. I was then told I was a white knight and couldn't see the good from the bad. I'm now told that if only *I* saw what others saw years ago I wouldn't look so hypocritical now. It's frustrating only because the line of people telling me I'm wrong has shifted over the years, as people that once fought with all their being to stop the conversation about changing the combat system but are now not even playing the game. Or the people that for whatever reason seem to latch on to one small aspect of the combat system (like the card deck) and throw out any good that could come from it regardless of years of changes and compromise.

I understand that you may not have paid attention to all my posts or perhaps didn't have access to all of them (in dev plus, and certainly in PM's, discord, etc...) But your assumption that I'm only now coming to the conclusion that the combat system has flaws is incorrect. I've been beat up more than any person in these forums over the last four years when it comes to combat. The difference between me and perhaps others is that I do understand some of the reasons the developers choose this path. (as I outlined in the OP). I didn't agree with them, and I don't agree with them in retrospect. But that doesn't really matter. What matters is that we look at the game as it is today and make it better without thinking that we can somehow go back in time and change every aspect of it. That's not going to happen.

The OP is based in the reality that the combat system will never be "what I would've done." But as we move forward perhaps it could be more specialized and balanced than if I didn't continue to provide this feedback. It doesn't mean I hate the combat system, I don't. It only means that I have the ability to continue providing actionable feedback, even if it takes some people years to recognize it.

 

I understand that some people, especially those who come from a D&D background, dislike playing a hybrid but that is actually my favorite part of this game. I always hated that I was artificially limited in D&D. Also, if they implemented some path to specialization then everyone would pick the one that was the most effective and we would all be that. I really like that nobody (that I know of anyway) is using my exact hotbar setup and skillset.

 

I believe there's a way for us to have the best of both worlds.

Consider this...

If all combat skills and spells "classless" until you GM them, then you have plenty of time to figure out what you want to GM and what you don't. Even if you unlock something that you don't care about, you don't have to put additional effort into being good at it. The only difference is that you can't half ass your build at the higher levels, and because you have to get to the higher levels to unlock the skills and spells (as I suggest above) that means you can't minimize everything at the expense of people that specialize in something.

In other words, you can still have everything if you play long enough. You'll never be locked out of something, but you will no longer be able to know every spell and every skill without some form of commitment to that school of magic or combat discipline.

 

Isn't that just kicking the can down the road a bit instead of resolving the issue?

 

There are players out there who have specialized, and they are reaping the benefits of doing so. Perfect example, sara dreygon. Pretty much pure blades, probably has 2 blade skills at 140. Even though I am higher level, because I have spread myself out through many skills, I will not be able to kill things as fast as sara as I have not specialized that much. I know some players that are pure bow, I know some players that are pure mage. I do see a lot of diversity, not a bunch of the same. Funny how one of the most specialized players is one of the top players, specializing did not slow sara down.

I am the opposite side of the spectrum, I have gmed a ton of skills (165 at moment). I love versatility and adaptability, before I even played a video game, these words have a lot of meaning to me, and I hold their value dear. Darwin even changed his statement from survival of the fittest to survival of the most adaptable. Does not matter how strong you are, if you cannot adapt to the environment, you are probably going to die. That's what life does, it adapts, that's what time is, time is change. I am just trying to show just how much I love versatility and adaptability here. Despite how much I value those ideals, I can still see the advantage someone who specializes has.

If I took all the exp I have and put it into 3 trees + the few key skills, I would lose some versatility, but I would gain in power for what goals I might have set for myself. For example, killing dragon. A ton of the skills I have do not help me in the fight vs the dragon, if I took all that exp in those skills I do not use on the dragon, and sunk it into what I do use on the dragon, I would be faster and safer, basically, more powerful. Now to answer some questions.

"How the hell is someone supposed to play a mage when everyone is a freakin mage?"

First off, not everyone has mage skills. If you want to play a mage, put skill points into mage skills, pretty simple.

"Everyone has resistance to everything?"

I will run on the assumption everyone is a mage for this, Yep, they have resistances, and so do you, this is where things become tactical.

"Everyone is a bastardized hybrid tank mage?"

You gotta get out more and meet the players. I see lots of glass canon mages, lots of archers, lots of blade users in heavy armor that don't really use magic.

"Why is GMing a skill or spell important?"

Its not, all it does is is allow you to help others who want to train that same skill. Leveling skills is important, that's how we play the game.

"What value does that give players when everyone has direct access to the same thing you do, it's just varying degrees of power."

Being mentored has awesome benefits. Use less regs, less time, less durability used. You really want to see the power of being mentored, get mentored doing enchanting and masterworking as the savings on gold and silver are awesome.

"For example, celestial blessing is essentially about as powerful as it needs to be at skill level 1. So why should anyone GM that skill, ever?" Moon attunement and duration. I mean, why does anyone level any skill, to make it better.

"Why does it matter if someone is "the best archer" in the game if everyone they come into contact with is also shooting a bow or swapping out a bow whenever they get into range?"

Because they will win. You could ask the person a few questions or fight them a few times and learn from them. They can call themselves the best archer. They like to pvp.

 

But, specializing needs alot more work and time to get any benefits out of it and we get an amazingly high decay. And it works mostly just in PvE. I remeber when i attacked you in Krul with 2 mobs on you and even with my blade skills in 120+ i couldnt drop any hit on you against the variety on defensive skills you triggerd.
A simple balancing will not help in this case. We need something like passive skill you can only unlock if the skill is on 100 like passive crit on blade or the best skills from heavy armor to work against the body plate abuse from mages.

 

I have 25 skills at 120 and over 100 more adventure skills gmed. My decay is 800k. I can make that in an hour. I have probably put in a little more time then sara draygon but we are pretty close as far as exp goes. I cannot deal the same damage sara does, the benefits of saras specialization. You want to talk about pvp, Naamerela at level 87 took me down with blades. If naam uses death ward gear, and the resistances pots, I cant kill him with magic. Hes specialized in life and blades, hard to kill.

 

A few thoughts on this.

Please understand that I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I'm simply pointing out a fact (as I see it) that the problem addressed in the OP is very real and very much a byproduct of the reality that you're describing in the quote above. I understand that you think this is fine, that there's not a problem with this at all, but I strongly disagree.

Here's why: @Chris
1. As I've said before, 800k on 25 skills over 120 and 100 other skills GMed is a complete joke and a part of the overall problem.
2. The fact that someone gain 800k XP in an hour is a complete joke and a part of the overall problem.
3. Specialization is not a race to 10% of the power curve, it's special. It means that others that have not trained as much as you have and committed themselves to a school of magic like you have should not and do not have the ability to do what you can do. Allowing people to do "everything" only makes it so anything someone does is plus or minus what someone else does. The fact that we can only use 10 skills or spells on the combat bar at a time helps "some" with this, but the reality for higher tier power gaming players in our community is that it doesn't really matter what your character can do, we can all do 60 to 80% of that if we so desire. And the result of that make players (like me) think, why am I bothering to do this at all? What makes my character special? What gives meaning to my character? What use is my ability to craft or fight if just about any other player in the game (or collection of players) can do what I do?
4. For an achiever, these may not be important questions. But for other playing styles, they may be the most important question. Certainly for anyone interested in roleplaying, it's important to be able to distinguish yourself in the world with skills or spells that are meaningful. If everyone can make light, stealth, and create AOE attacks, why not just sit down and let them do that while you watch the text scroll by in what is otherwise a glorified chat room?
5. The great equalizer between a person with too much time on their hands that can infinitely out play everyone else is a class system. And although I don't suggest we move to that now, I do suggest we attempt to build a bridge within our "classless" system that allows for specialization that can not hope to be achieved on a single account by a single player. This would give players of NORMAL amounts of time the opportunity to feel like they matter, while separating the power curve to be more distinct and less hybrid (I know everything and do everything well).

 

"1. As I've said before, 800k on 25 skills over 120 and 100 other skills GMed is a complete joke and a part of the overall problem."

And what is the overall problem?

"2. The fact that someone gain 800k XP in an hour is a complete joke and a part of the overall problem."

What is the overall problem here?

"3. Specialization is not a race to 10% of the power curve, it's special. It means that others that have not trained as much as you have and committed themselves to a school of magic like you have should not and do not have the ability to do what you can do. Allowing people to do "everything" only makes it so anything someone does is plus or minus what someone else does. The fact that we can only use 10 skills or spells on the combat bar at a time helps "some" with this, but the reality for higher tier power gaming players in our community is that it doesn't really matter what your character can do, we can all do 60 to 80% of that if we so desire."

Nope, specializing in this sense is while having the choice to do many things decently, you choose to do one thing exceptionally well. Has nothing to do with comparing yourself to others. Putting all your points into 1 or a couple things means you are specializing over putting you points spread into many things. Just because you give people the choice to learn everything, does not mean they all will, and many don't. Just because the ice cream store has 1083 flavors of ice cream, does not mean I need all 1083 flavors, it means I get to make a choice, even if that choice is all 1083 flavors, its still choice.

"And the result of that make players (like me) think, why am I bothering to do this at all?"

I cannot answer this question for you, only you can answer this question for yourself, just like every other person can only answer this for themselves as well. I can give you my answer. I play for entertainment mainly (WAY better then watching the zombie box) but on the side, I am also making some money, as well get to talk with other interesting people from around the world.

"What makes my character special?"

You are the one controlling it. How you interact with others, what you say, what you do, is what makes your character special. I am not really memorable because of what my character can do, I am memorable for the way I am, and how that comes through my character. When I dance naked with a chaotic clone head, when I just see some random person and help them, every time I give guildies deals on the artifacts I sell, and many other things make me special, just like the actions by every other player makes them special, and since we are all special, the whole things losses all meaning and we are not special, just different, understand?

"What gives meaning to my character?"

Whatever meaning you give it, just like in real life. I cannot give you a defined answer on this as this is only something you can answer again.

"What use is my ability to craft or fight if just about any other player in the game (or collection of players) can do what I do?"

What use is my ability to walk upright, every other person can do it? It gets me where I want to be. Because if you do nothing, then you are accomplishing nothing, and might as well quit right now. You think a person that wants to be a carpenter just gives up because there are already carpenters in the world?

"4. For an achiever, these may not be important questions. But for other playing styles, they may be the most important question. Certainly for anyone interested in roleplaying, it's important to be able to distinguish yourself in the world with skills or spells that are meaningful. If everyone can make light, stealth, and create AOE attacks, why not just sit down and let them do that while you watch the text scroll by in what is otherwise a glorified chat room?

Jeeze, I wonder how roleplayers felt playing other games where you did have to pick a class and did not have nearly the diversity this game has, be impossible to have a skill no one else has, yet, roleplayers were in many other games that did not even have close to the diversity of sota. You want to sit and watch others play, that can be roleplaying right there, you can call yourself the observer. Its not skills or spells that make a person a roleplayer, its finding a role you want to play and playing to that role, hence the term roleplay.

"5. The great equalizer between a person with too much time on their hands that can infinitely out play everyone else is a class system. And although I don't suggest we move to that now, I do suggest we attempt to build a bridge within our "classless" system that allows for specialization that can not hope to be achieved on a single account by a single player. This would give players of NORMAL amounts of time the opportunity to feel like they matter, while separating the power curve to be more distinct and less hybrid (I know everything and do everything well)."

It does allow for specialization, not hard to specialize, put all skill points into only a few skills. You want to be a class, pick the skills that make that class.

"I do suggest we attempt to build a bridge within our "classless" system that allows for specialization that can not hope to be achieved on a single account by a single player."

Omg dude, its already done. Not a single person is going to achieve 200 in all blade skills, probably will never even achieve 200 in one skill.

 

Challenge accepted.

 

On a serious note, I would really like to see some more selfish reason to GM skills. As it stands, with 90% of the skills, going from 80 to 100+ isn't worth the ~1.1m minimum experience to do so.

 

Yea i am going to have to completely dis-agree with you here. There are some skills that actually quadraticly get better with the more you have of it. An example of this would be avoidance. Currently i hit 80% avoidance. I cannot be crit and have over 800 HP. Skills like Glancing blows / Shield of Ice / Fortify Defense all power up the minor 1%'s you gain . For every 1 % of avoidance you gain it dramatically reduces the chance of you getting hit with a "normal" hit. Currently with Torpor i can hit something like 120% avoidance. This is my good old ohh **** button while tanking the dragons of this world so my healer can drop a heal on me.

That's just one skill.... on the other side of it... which this is the part where i am not trying to be offensive. You obviously do not know how the game works. Mages must GM and then some to be competative. The damage is also not coming from the ranks of the skills them selves but rather the attunments. Your attunment's really start affecting your damage ratings to a rediculess level when you break 120 base attunment. 120 base usually means 220-240 buffed attunment.

To prove this you should see what Fzol can do. I've seen him hit for 1500 with just a single stone arrow. Not to mension he has something like 1300 hp. He is probably the most specialized mage in the game. I think he has his stone arrow 140+ now and rocks something like a 237 earth attunment. This is a level of attunement that rivals death mages with a ring of lich kind that gives them an insaine 50 attunement.

Now the real issue i would say in this game isn't the lack of specialization ... it's the fact that there are almost not middle dungeons.... R5 dungeons are really low level dungeons.. When you start to get into the 70's you'll start to be ready for the R8 zone which is K'rul. K'rul is the only R8 zone in the game also. After you get to about 90 you can go to The Fall or The Rise. The fall is the highest level area in the game at R12. I am not sure but i think the rise is R11 ?. The problem is that people can start doing R5's in mid 30's. It leaves a Hell of a lot of grind between 30 and 70. Especially at 1k-3k a kill. The only zone that sort of bridges this gap would be the Craig Foothills. Even then it's basically R6 in the back and leaves a big gap between K'rul and the Craigs. K'raw is also similar to Craigs but is not widely known. in fact 80% of the game pop probably hasn't even been in there.

I am babling .... but i think you get the point.

 

But this means that he killed you mainly with gear and consumbables, not because of better skills?

 

He beat me because he knew how to counter what I was doing. Been saying this since before persistence, knowing your opponent is a HUGE help.

 

I do tend to agree, but so much with it being said they were going to slow players down. 800K XP gain in a hour sure doesn't seem like slowing down.