What Light Armor combat should look like

You are right, I got you.

 

i miss the old tumble, i just wish we could have kept it and just made it so you could tumble left OR right lol.

 

Yea, the biggest difference is that combat is more reactive. When you hit someone, he has to wait to attack back. Combat in SotA is more abstracted and everybody is attacking and defending at the same time.

That's what makes active combat work in that game. The challenge is to bring some of that to SotA and fit it into the more abstracted combat system. It's easy to do with the boss combat, where the attacks are slow and there are tells. But I think a lot of it can also work in regular combat too, if not exactly in the same ways.

So, you'll get hit while you're hitting, and defenses in movement will never be 100% effective, which is why I still think stand-in-place defense skills like Dodge/Evasion/Deflect are still important. But movement can still be really important for getting space; yet, OP passive defense sort of nullifies the need for movement. Free blocking can also theoretically work.

Just saying to figure out how to move the game in that direction a little.

 

Or move to the best direction based on what the game determined was most open ? But I suggest in the OP that combat rolls be tied to the Light Armor skillset to make up for the loss of Tumble.

Combat rolls still need to work, though! I can't get them to work most of the time.

 

they are touchy and focus hogs, i agree with being able to tumble in various directions is needed, i'd also like to be able to tumble back lol, i actually practice sword fighting and rolling back can be an invaluable skill, but in this game you perform a back flip ... huh? oh and while i like the idea of the game tumbling you to an open spot i'd rather be able to control it.

 

SotA can definitely have some of that. But it also can't have it for sure. Ok i know it sounds confusing but it is confusing for me as well... the way i see it, current combat system has touched too many fronts but never delved deep into any, so we have a combat system that can be many things but at the same time, it's nothing. I'd love to see the part i love to progress and be developed in the same way i'm expecting to see the things i don't enjoy to wither away... but please don't take me so seriously, i'm not trying to start an argument or nothing, i'm just stating my opinion.

So... making combat a bit more reactive? that's kind of a challenge, and of course it never will be the twitchyness frenzy that is the Witcher combat (that ship sailed the moment we have skills) but it is certainly doable, and even needed imo. Let's see... we first have the random deck system, with its unlimited potential, waiting to be developed. Combat also started going down the way of aiming, and the way some defensive skills worked was very promising towards being available counters, so there's the start. We also have the skillweaving mechanics, that can play a significant role into this if modified as suggested above (sequential implementation). With those elements as stepstones, we could easily reach a situation where combat have a turn based feeling, but since it is played in real time, decisions need to be taken in less than seconds.

I currently see some "structure" when playing my archer, an "order" to use my skills, so to speak, but i can't see it being modified by my enemy actions... that's just how my character goes, regardless what my enemy does. If some buffs were placed to enforce some behaviors and some mechanics were slightly changed to create a clearer combat flow, then tuning IA to work taking that "flow" in consideration and giving a skillset to each creature. I know i'm being very vague, but i don't want to extend this post a lot... I'll take some more space by exposing the "goals" this kind of combat should look, let's see what fellow Avatars think about it.

1. Position and numbers should matter more than level or skills (cover system plz ). Actions should matter above almost everything.
2. Using certain skills after other skills should be rewarded (like in the sequential implementation of skillweaving and even stacking) so people will use them in that order. Because of that, enemies will expect people to use skills in that order.
3. Using certain skills AGAINST other kind of skills should also be rewarded with maybe some kind of additional effect that gives you the edge over your enemy.
4. Timed reactions should be rewarded (using the right skill in the right moment) while preparations should just work.
5. Almost every passive benefit should be situational, and not too mighty, so players will fight looking for the situations where they're receiving those bonuses.

I'm positive that working towards those 5 points, we'd have a more reactive combat experience while keeping the skill based reference and the core mechanics that are already in place.

 

+1

 

Personally, I was VERY disappointed to find that skill stacking is required for combos. I thought it would be much more useful to use skills in a specific order and have that trigger the combo. It would make option 2 in the list much more viable and lively.

 

I agree, intuitively, a combo should just be doing two things one after the other.. having to play around with the GUI always brings me away from the feeling of fighting in the game, and makes me feel like I'm fighting the game, not fighting in the game.

 

I did not to understand the OP, days passed as I tried to read the technical whitepaper.


j/k. You have great points! Thanks for caring so much to post that for all of us. I could not have written it so well.

 

You're welcome @Tahru !

 

Redfish does allot of testing with combat and has a very good understanding of mechanics. Though we don't always want the same things from the game, it is always a pleasure to read his extremely well constructed feedback. He is one of the most helpful and consistent playtesters we have.

 

This part I completely disagree with. Currently in PVE, and generally in PVP heavy armor is dominating battlefield, Yes some of this is balancing that still has to be fixed.

For example

1: Charging/rushing skills that ignores all holds slows and knock downs.
2: Zones that are generally to small for a archer to freely kite without attracting more mobs.
3: The inability to fire from high ground or do zero damage.

Add on top the requirement to add more active glyphs to just to activate the meager armor protection we do get from light armor, and you cripple an already handicapped skill tree by forcing me to add more defense when I am currently forced to focus on damage because I cant afford to be hit!

I agree that light armor needs a revamp, but it needs to ensure proper balance without penalizing even more and I fear making these skills active.

 

@Varrus Caius,

Yea, but what's the solution, then? To make Light Armor more like Heavy Armor, and Heavy Armor more like Light Armor, until both are exactly the same and there's no difference except the names of the skills and whether it's called damage avoidance vs. deflection vs. something else ? That's where we're already headed with the current implementation... and its boring... and its also what's creating the high passive evasion, which is bad for gameplay.

I don't know if focusing on armor durability is enough, but how about talking about nerfing heavy armor, rather than keeping high passive evasion for light armor? Back when we had auto-attack rather than free attack, slugs were removed, because people didn't find that fun. How much did that affect game balance? How much does it affect game balance that people in Heavy Armor can using Healing Touch with no costs? Is there any way Heavy Armor can be changed to make it less OP versus Light Armor? Why are we always talking about beefing up Light Armor, and not adjusting Heavy Armor skills?

Your last idea points deal with archery. I actually agree w/ you that the inability to fire from high ground is a problem for archery. I don't know if constant kiting is really the best gameplay mechanic for archers, but that's another discussion. But neither of those really addresses melee fighters. Kiters would take advantage of Light Armor passives even if they only activated when moving (ie like suggested for Acrobatics). How do we make Light Armor melee more fun and more like you'd expect it to play?

 

Maybe its also worth noting that changing Acrobatics so damage resistance only occurs with player movement would also allow the + damage resistance to be beefed up. And that would be good defense for kiters, even though they wouldn't get the Stillness buff and would still do less damage.

 

Agreed

I would support movement requirement in order to receive damage resistance.

The team should also consider adding a medium armor skill tree, and possibly stamina as a third resource.

Heavy:+str/dam reduction, HP & higher base damage
Medium: +dex/dam avoidance, Movement & higher weapon crit chance
Light: +int/spell damage, & spell crit

 

Current implementation is dull for sure, but there's no need to create an active vs passive situation. I don't like that because well... actions are part of what means to play. Making Heavy armor to rely mostly on passives means that heavy armor is less "playable". You can difference them in both active and passive aspects, creating an unique different of playing defensive for each.

• In the passive aspects (light armor protect less but has high mobility while heavy armor protects more but penalizes movement)
• In the active aspects, both can increase defensive values but differentiation may come in the details; light armor values could be higher at the moment you use the skill then decrease over time, and giving additional benefits as movement and positioning. heavy armor values could be more stable, greatly enhancing damage avoidance but increasing the movement penalties or making your armor take more damage and that kind of stuff.

You can also throw shields in the mix, relating them to attack speed or something like that. What's important it's to make the gameplay unique... but reducing the amount of skills on a skill tree should be the last choice.

Less innates! more actives!

 

I am a big supporter of the idea that light armour should be all about mobility. I think light armour wearers should get the opposite of the stillness buff for one. I think pretty much every light armour skill should be more effective if used while moving (both passive and active) and combat rolls should not drain focus if wearing light armour.

 

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

Yea, this is exactly how I used the Tumble skill -- move first (Tumble) -- block second (Deflect/Dodge/etc). You can, of course, manually move, but people can still hit you when you're moving in the game and Tumble gave you some defensive cover as you were moving.

Its also what got me into writing the OP here, since I thought it might be helpful to look at what was good about that skill and what was bad about it in order to see how Light Armor as a whole could be improved. I listed all of the problems I saw in the OP, but one of the biggest was that when you leveled up, it started to feel pointless, since your passive evasion was good enough to let you fight without it.

And, again, Healing Touch being so easy to use didn't help, either.

 

Totally agree.