Why do we insist on pvp Zones?

What does this even mean? Are you saying that it is interesting to be a low level player flagged for PvP who is attacked and killed by a group of higher level players who just place high ransoms on the low level player's gear and laughs about how "bad" the newb is? That somehow that is essential to keep a game interesting? How? Please elaborate.

You are correct, I shouldn't have to and don't need to take part in it. I'm not asking to create artificial boundaries beyond what is already possible in the game. There should be no reason that an Adventure Level 20 character should zone into PvP zone with level 60, 80 or 100 characters. Everyone knows the only couple of ways that will end, either the newb effectively runs away or the newb dies and the "tough guys" who have all the advantage and gear can laugh and gloat. Happened all the time in old school UO, early Star Wars Galaxies and it really wasn't fun. When people saw one GOON Squad member, it was nearly always, run or die.

That can still be had while keeping PvP players zoning into PvP zones with similar Adventure Level players. Please elaborate how that would destroy things, beyond saying it's unfair that a level 100 character will forever miss out on hunting solo low level players who by nature of the game system, would never stand a chance against that higher level player? If you can really explain it without it looking like a whine about being forced to face similarly powered PvP accounts... Perhaps there is some merit in that, which I haven't seen.

Except for the point that one cannot unflag in a PvP scene and sometimes there will be more than a little reason for a PvE player to enter into a PvP scene.

 

1. You want to be sheltered by any bad experience? The scenario you present might not be fun for you, but for most people the freedom in play makes it interesting.
One day you can become the noob slayer, or become the protector of noobs. In SotA right now everyone just don't cares

2. Did not happen in SWG if you didn't want it because PVP was consensual.

3. PVP here is consensual if you are not up for it, don't play it. Don't force your limitations on others. It is pretty clear at this point that you don't want a sandbox MMO at all. Singleplayer/Friends mode is made just for you.

4. Making everyone the same, is kinda the opposite of what an RPG is about. You develop a char and want to play with your char.
If we want to make the game an FPS or MOBA they should have designed it a whole lot different. Because usually in those games twitch mechanics or tactical decisions are more developed than in an average RPG. You are making the game more into a theme park of mini games which is so far away from anything Ultima or UO that I am not sure why you are here?

5. You are still a victim into thinking PVE and PVP need to be separated. This is exactly the opposite of what a sandbox RPG is. Player interaction will be the mayor content provider for any sandbox game. Especially from a small team like this. If you do not want to compete with others play single-player. That's perfect for you. Next up someone complains that other people sell for lower prices than themselves and want that removed from the game?..

 

It's a game that I pay money to play that has openly stated that there are features that can be avoided.

This thread seems to be originally created to voice a reason why everyone should be PvP all of the time.

I have no interest in becoming either a Noob Slayer or Protector of Noobs. Clearly, some people care, because people sharing their preferences and ideas to make for a more fair and literally more challenging situation for those who really want to PvP all the time, are claiming that to be a "witch hunt".

You must not have been a pre-launch SWG player and Launch Day SWG player. They didn't implement PvP flags for a little while into the game's launch, because of groups like GOON Squad, causing strife and many complaints.

When SWG Launched, it was still the early days of MMO's where nobody thought thru the concept of anonymity allowing people to feel safe from reprisals for being total psychopathic monsters.

Unless you are required to enter into a PvP scene for any reason, then you have to flag PvP. There's no consent at that point. If they make those weird plant spores or other bits have some value in crafting down the road, that's still a choice, but is it really?

Oh, so your position is that you really want there to be no or very, very low challenge PvP for high level players, that instead of facing off against "equals" and literally having to sweat things out, they should always be able to "single button nuke" noob players. If that's what you want, just be openly honest about it. If someone wants to play the game of, "I've been around longer than you, so I'm going to push you around and there's nothing you can do about it."... well, that's fine. Just be honest about it.

You really haven't succeeded in convincing me that there is any other reason for allowing PvP zones pit such disparate Adventure Level characters against one another, except to give those who want to feel super powerful by quickly dispatching "noobs" their "fun".

All that's going to do is severely limit those who enter PvP zones AND eventually make it so that only the highest level characters will consider going into those zones, which.... creates that thing you claim you don't want, being that everyone is exactly the same in the PvP zones.

 

You are vilifying people and that speaks a lot about yourself
The thing is I want a sandbox MMO where players are not put into pre defined scenarios. You always pick the extremes and only Sith's deal in absolutes If you are too scared or newb to enter a shardfall just buy the stuff from someone who goes there...

I am really tired of people making vilifying claims here and getting away with it, but I guess arguing with you is pretty pointless. Enjoy single-player.

 

Best example of how to kill a game via new player retention.

Zone 1: starting zone
Zone 2: too difficult for zone 1 players too easy for zone 3 players
Zone 3: most difficult zones.

Once zone 2 and 3 players move back to zone 1 the game is dead. It may take it a while to figure out that it’s dead but it’s dead none the less. This is more relevant to PvP. Sandbox PvP promotes this the most.

If anyone promotes this model I will always be one the loudest in opposition.

Change zone with level, gear, group size, etc the model is the same. Remove reason to PvP on a level well beneath your own. Or watch the game shrivel up and die.

 

There is no reason to PVP at all. That is why the game never came to life in the first place
In a sandbox weaker chars usually group up with others to compensate for their weakness... does not only apply to level.. also skill
That why I heavily promoted a faction system, so inexperienced or lowskilled players can get help from higher level ones in PVP.

You all only see PVP as a PK vs sheep scenario.. and currently there is nothing more in SotA, I agree. That is a problem. If you guys knew you get an assignment in a PVP zone and a group to handle it... heck you still might die - but it would get less and less likely

The people that leave because they get killed by a PK, also leave when they never accomplish to solo a dragon... So if you dumb down the game for them, every average player feels bored.

 

The goal is to NOT design PvP around avoiding competitive PvP. I’m not suggesting we make PvP balanced with rankings/ladders/leaderboards but making preying on the weak rewarding is a nail in the coffin.

Which is where PvP zone is can be useful.

 

Please, let the PVP people have their PVP zones. I have never found it necessary to enter any of those zones, and as long as that continues to be the case I'm happy for them to have their own exclusive (and mostly empty) places.
Whether the huge effort that went into creating those places was justified is not my concern. I'm sure Portalarium knows what it is doing. Build it and they will come. Eventually. After launch?

 

I doubt people will start hanging out in pvp zones, unless changed, excluding the fall. I have spent a good amount of time in Rhun ruins as I used to live in Spite and only ever saw 1 other person there, such a waste it's one of my favourite zones visually with lots of ruins(duh) to hode from archers and mages.

@Ristra dont know if you got it confirmed but yes you can still flag on already flagged players, this wouldnt have been THAT much of an annoyance for me if a first hit in the back didnt impact the fight as much as it does.

 

Vilifying who? That word, it doesn't mean what you think it means. I am in no way disparaging or writing about anyone in an abusive manner. Please point out where I write abusively or disparagingly to anyone here. Wanting to be able to lord one's power over low level characters is a perfectly valid position and interest in playing the game. Pointing out the history of sandbox, open world PvP and its effects on a game, because of groups like GOON Squad, are just facts. Neither are intended to be disparaging nor is it abusive to point that out. Taking it that way, probably says quite a bit about you.

Again, you use that word...

Look, the whole point of PvP is to have a challenge that isn't under the strict limits inherent in the barely capable of being called "AI" of MOBs. There is no challenge in a match between a level 20 and a level 80 character. The level 20 character might hit the level 80 character a couple of times for a few points of damage, much of the rest will be mitigated by armor and skills, the level 80 character will crit, crit, crit and chew up that level 20 character. Even as a support in a group, the level 20 won't have enough healing magic or ranged damage chances to hit/crit level 80 characters to be of much value on a team.

So, they'll try it once and either never try it again or they won't go back until their level 80, which makes PvP really only the purview of level 80+ players. For the casual player, that could mean a good year or two before he/she is able to take part in whatever PvP ends up meaning. Which is how it works for the majority of MMOs, unless those MMOs have an arbitrary power boosting or nerfing of players to level the playing field. I recall City of Heroes and I think Champions Online had/has that as a feature with "Sidekicking" a lower level player. They implemented a leveling effect in Star Wars: The Old Republic as well.

You don't want that and you don't want set limits on level ranges for characters to instance into PvP zones. The only conclusions one can take from that is either you only want level 80+ characters in PvP zones or you want to lord a much higher level toon over weaker toons who cannot possibly compete. Are there other conclusions that can be drawn from that? If you think it is vilifying to point out obvious truths, that are completely valid positions to hold... maybe you feel bad that you really want that? I really don't know what you think, but I'd like to know what you think.

 

You fail to understand that this is an rpg. Leveling a char is part of the game. If you don't like that go back to play FPS or play singleplayer

You called out people as psychos. Goons are just well organized and you apparently aren't capable to compete. It is what is is. No need to hijack the thread with a 2 man discussion.

 

Psyhopaths, is what I said. The GOON Squad (and others, but they were the most prolific) openly and regularly showed violent, anti-social behavior to anyone who wasn't a GOON. They were very well organized and they were organized to create mayhem and strife. It's what they wanted to do, that was the play style they were looking for, people started leaving the game, because GOON spent a good deal of time griefing. That's why the flag system was introduced. All of that behavior was very anti-social and violent. Even with the loosest of definitions, that is what the behavior was.

At the time, it was also a perfectly valid style of play, it just sucked the fun out of game play for people who were not GOONs. That, had to be corrected and once they did, it was a solid system that preserved game play for both playstyles.

Leveling a character is indeed part of the game. You've mentioned mentoring and power leveling lower level characters. The devs have openly stated that the current level and rate of XP will be changed at launch. So, it will take longer to level a character and perhaps being mentored will be a far less lucrative payout for those lower level characters.

You want PvP to be robust and have value from the earliest of levels all the way to the highest of levels in the game, but you also openly talk about hunting down "noobs" all the time, which means you also want it to be about being able to be a remorseless PK'er. That's a valid choice, but it's a choice that once the game goes live and more people with your intent start playing, will push everyone who isn't at the highest levels into staying away from being PvP flagged.

Making a check to Adventurer Level and setting up new instances in those scenes to keep similarly powered by AL characters together, would create a more robust PvP experience that will allow people to experience the challenge of PvP throughout the game where they feel they have a "Fair" chance against other players. Does that take anything away from you? Maybe, but people could still be open world flagged PvP if they wish and you could still go noob hunting and if that noob hunting creates a wall where nobody but the highest level players will flag open world PvP, so be it.

 

That's just your opinion man. You disqualified yourself at this point. What you say sounds nice in theory but if you segregate the playerbase in such a small game its not going to work. As I said your problems in this game probably come from being not very social or just not a good player skill wise. The game could teach you that, or give mechanics that generate incentives for players to teach you the game. I prefer the latter and I agree it is bad for not having those.

Your suggestions segregate the playerbase even more, you're not solving anything longterm but a problem very specific to a small amount of the current playerbase that struggles to get the grasp of the game mechanics. I can understand that you want it, but it would only solve YOUR problem. Up next you demand that people sell goods at your pricing, or any other handicap you might have.

I agree that newbies need a place in this world. Just the methods you chose are bad game design, and can only work with a huge player base which this game will never have. They need to implement systems so ppl play together not further seperated into skill levels etc. If you and I get a reason to group together and play together problem is solved. Levelling in this game takes 1 week and you can PVP if you know what you are doing. Just talk to people and learn the game.

 

i understand and agree to both of you in some points!
the difficulty is to bring everything together.

just to say - to be mentored and "pulled" to a certain level of competetiveness is not what most players want to do.
and they also need to like to grind a lot, farm bosses while switching modes, get Gear gifted and things like that to get to the point you are talking about.
In No Way someone who want to learn and regularily play the game is ready to PvP in a week, maybe a year, but then hee need to learn quick and grind as much as he can at the right spots with the right skills.

 

No way. It work that easy as the higher your level the more XP you make. I found levelling skills to be way quicker and quicker. I gm a skill now in an hour if I want to.
You just have to know what you are doing. Yes the game gives zero instruction to you or incentive for others to teach you that.

I read somewhere that Kor made a PVP ready char alone within a week. The thing is most of you guys simply forget that even if you play or have the same level you won't get the same result. You completely neglect player skill. Now SotA is not a very twitchy game, but knowing what buff and debuff to use and dispell it quick matter a lot. Also what shield to use and what spells or dmg type.

Most people I saw here vouching for a zone to limit level etc could easily be brought up into a viable range. As you well know having a skill at 90 or 100 matters not that much. I know a lot of good players who do not even bother getting them higher.

Believe me when I say if you get a meaningful PVP system it will be the benefit for all. Trying to put people on the same level in an arena type thing will just end up in being another grind without meaning. Might be fun for a while though... But then the same people complain again that they want to be matched with people of the same skill level....
And again we get seperated more... SotA has next to no players already. We need to build communities by bringing everyone together. Give me a reason to level the newbs and I'll do it

 

agree, but most will just dislike this cherrypicking skills sort of leveling and pvp.

i just skilled ome fire and i laughed when i saw what you can do with its AoE - now do the same with def buffs and HoT's and you can smelt Mobs in seconds. But is it fun? To me not - i know and learned, figured out some things and also got tips, but it totally neglects my RP character i want to play.
therefore i refused to do it.
As i said, just grinded 4 hrs to do some fire skilling and then didnt log in for 2 days as i loose the identification with my character and ask me again why i do this? Resistance or to kill a Troll, i would need to use a Weapon additionally instead of my staff.

btw. what are staffs for? 2 wands are better, with bosses resistant to all magic, what are staffs for?

 

That the skill systems flaw comes to light once you mastered all of it is on another piece of paper.
I talked ingame with Mac about it that we both think it needs to be more accessible for new players and that resistances need to work on their own... Maybe an own skill tree.
My suggestion would be to also create a bandage skill in tactics or so to give non magic users a healing opportunity.
Problem is that the ONE Class system, and yes it is essentially ONE class (same mistake as in Darkfall 1) doesn't go well with a MMORPG. In singleplayer no one cares about stuff like that I guess. I guess we will see changes to make decisions on Armor, Skills etc more definitive. That won't mean that you cannot still level everything as I also think that should be possible.

We will see in what direction @Chris will go with the redesign of the armor set effects and iterate from there on.

 

Staffs and Wands haven't been balanced for forever ^^ I guess they will get a rework when the AMMO system comes. Something the devs mentioned in the past but you can read no details about it. I assume Wands and Staffs will get an auto attack - maybe use gem shards as ammo? I dunno.

Some bosses are vulnerable to magic (Troll - Fire/Sun and you can avoid almost all dmg).
However you need a lot of focus regen as a mage you need lots of focus to kill a boss. As melee it is easier as you see in Mac's videos

 

This is the main problem right now.
PvP only players like me have no way of playing now due to Friends/Solo mode and Oracle's protection.
Many PvP friends left the game, and many are about to do the same, we need an urgent solution to bring pvpers back to SotA or we will see the end of PVP here.
Improve my character to be strongest is near to meaningless if i have none to fight.

 

That's what I keep saying. We need to bring initial backers back by adding what they were missing.
I don't want to say PVP per se, it is sandbox content we need - also in PVE. Give us more sand and it will generate meaning and everything with it.
UO had a fun faction system. Why not something like this for starters? Could also pep it up with PVE elements like other games did. Win Win for everyone. This could even provide interesting content for the singleplayer guys.