Why is that...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Stundorn, Jul 17, 2018.

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  1. Andartianna

    Andartianna Avatar

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    Player skill = time practicing(time playing)
    You do not become a skilled player overnight or by osmosis
    SO if you have spent the time practicing you will have earned the reward so
    (Play skill = time practicing) = reward
    The game already rewards us based on the skill which we show by practicing the skills.......
    A casual player is not as skilled as a player that is hardcore and practices all the time.
    There is no way you can convince me that a casual player has the same skill level as a hardcore player. There have been many research studies on the effect of practice to skill level.
    So the game is already giving you what you are asking for the most skilled players get the most reward.
     
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  2. Ravicus Domdred

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    I agree with you Stun. I would love to have RP/PVP on an equal footing. I agree that casual players will never be able to compete in pvp with the hardcore. I have fought this fight for years in the past, but very seldom mention it now because most people that cared about this are gone now. Most of the player base left is into a version of Sims and second life. Its perfect that way for them if your into that kinda thing. Not so much for the rest of us though. I appreciate your tenacity friend, take care.
     
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  3. Gix

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    I believe it stems from the concept that SotA is (supposed to be) an RPG and it’s traditionally encouraged that the strength of the character you play is what makes the difference in any aspect of the game such as dialogue and combat.

    Out Of Character knowledge trumps Player knowledge in most D&D sessions.

    That’s not to say that it absolutely needs to have a discrepency in character power (especially as large as it is in SotA) and I don’t believe it should but what really makes or breaks the game is how the discrepancy may or may not be communicated to the players.

    Imagine if there were no Tier info for each scene? You don’t want a level 1 to stumble upon a level 50 monster without having the player knowing until it’s too late. Although Tiers aren’t really working properly, it’s an example of communication.

    Long story short, the enjoyment out of getting a reward should be equal for every player but, statistically, the value of the reward should be proportionate to the power of the character.

    Where player skill is applied is in the tactics used.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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  4. majoria70

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    Hello Stundorn. It's ok to have your wishes for improvements you see for this game and I do agree improvements need to be made too. Having been here all through development since 2013 before the game systems were added in I had my own strong thoughts and feedback on how I thought it should be believe me. Now here we are. I don't necessarily think they will change up to achieve most of your requests. If you think of the coding some would take to change the way this game is set up it would be massive in cost and since all of the world has been set up around the grind factor that too would have to be redesigned. I truly don't think at this point they will change it all the way you wish for. I am not even saying things are perfect as they are. No one really is saying this. They are saying at this point this is what we have. Now given what we have what can we do to improve on it?

    Well for one thing add to the specializations. Make it so if you specialize you get cool new skills and perhaps quests teach you some skills. Improve taming to be more fun and detailed. Improve on castable creatures too so they have interesting and helpful things they do.

    Also improve systems in place and give them full featured updates not just bare bones. Make them fun, interesting, and much more detailed. This would be agriculture, fishing, cooking, and when we get treasure hunting etc I hope the devs take time to make the systems we have and will get much more to be full featured.

    Also every where they see to improve on outcomes that have been complained of that they can I hope they improve on those. At this time we need to improve what we can and be proud of the systems in the game. The amazing world is there well episode 1 world. It needs lots of polish.

    Edited
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  5. Stundorn

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    Yeah, i'm just sad and i think SotA would be really a great RP PvP Game.
    Just some corrections and settings and Boom we would maybe have UO or SWG Style RPvX gameplay for thousands of players.
    Fighting for passes and traderoutes, doing researches in the ruins, some black, some white, some grey , having this 3 Faction style of DAoC, doing the economy and buy stuff here sell it there, because nit everybody is able to get there ir want to take the risk. Having specialized Harvesters selling the raw mats, having refiners, having Crafters, some are only for endproducts and rely on the Harvesters and refiners, others choose to be able to be self sufficient in one profession, from harvesting over refining to the end product.
    Having people roleplaying not only in the Tavern while dancing , but in the field in between territory fights and after defeating the others telling true story happened ingame...
    Isnt that what @Lord British stands for?
    Isnt this he wanted?

    I dont know, sometimes i think i'm just wrong at all and completely misplaced.

    @all i never wanted to offend someone or take something away, what i wanted is to have the game have some rules and restrictions we all together can have fun.
    This way i unfortunately are locked off somehow.
    I maybe try to get there what @kaeshiva said and list me for UT grinding to get some innates and main skills to 80 or 100 and get my 2 specializations .
    But this wont make the game full of people competing and cooperating because they still are all more or less self sustainable.

    I still believe this would attract a lot of old UO players.


    Whatever ....
     
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  6. Bambino

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    The idea that a never ending grind is the main reason that players will stick around baffles me. Grinding is far from the reason why players stick around. There is so much to do in this game besides killing monsters until you go into a trance. If that were the main feature in the game, many players would stay as far away as possible. it's already doing it's job effectively by fending players off from playing the game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  7. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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  8. 2112Starman

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    I dont think I have ever played an MMO without grinding (or almost any game at all). Grinding is what makes an MMO. Different designs have different kinds of grinding. The point of an MMO is to make you grind. These arguments have been around for decades now. I actually quit playing MMO's for a good ~5 years after Wow when I grinded 7 characters to lvl 70. 4 of those had the full PvP gears sets. PvP was a grind, leveling was a grind, dung runs (UBRS, Molten core) everything was a grind. I remember grinding the trees in DAOC, several chars to lvl 50, you had to sit there (hib) and get in groups and pull for hours. I grinded Jboots in EQ for 24 hours strait and sat there with my Magican solo farming guards for endless hours, same thing over and over. In Guild Wars 2, we grinded the same PvP zone in zergs, just running around zerging over and over again. Even in solo RPG's there is massivbe grinding, in Skyrim it was repetitive quests over and over. In Final Fantisy 3 on the Nintendo I remember grinding in certain spots over and over and over again to gain levels, same with Phantisy Star on the Sega. Lets go old school late 80's... in Pools of radiance, hillsfar, Bardstale, I used to grind and grind the same areas to level my toons. Contra and Mario on the Nintendo.. I grinded the hell out of them for years. How about other games like Civilization, hell... I grinded thousands of hours in that game from Civ1 to Civ6.
     
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  9. Bambino

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    You miss the point. A grind is ok, like all the games you spoke of (GW2 not sure of). In UO, there was a skill cap and a grind. In this game, you get grind indefinitely. Yes, there is a soft cap, but it's way too high, and players can and will spend disgusting amounts of time to reach that soft cap. In turn, the negative impact of such a system is seen everywhere. It's most detrimental to PvP. I can feel the gag reflexes in my stomach starting to contract just think about going beyond 100. Point being, grinding is not why players stick around. Just a select few.
     
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  10. redfish

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    What... noo.. That's how MMOs have been designed, its not how they have to be designed. In fact, during Kickstarter, LB promised that Shroud wouldn't be all about grinding, that it would be a different type of game, and I think part of the reason why they even at first tried to stay away from the term "MMO," because he wanted the game to appeal just as much to single player Ultima fans. Which is why lots of people are disappointed with the state of the game.

    I think you have a really broad definition of grinding to the extent that you even consider playing the Civ games "grinding." Its not what it means to most people. Its telling that the term "grinding" didn't even appear in gaming lexicons until MMOs existed.
     
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  11. Azzamean

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    I disagree. An MMO should be about much, much more. The community aspect of it.
     
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  12. Elwyn

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    "It is not successful"
    "It does not have these things I think it should have"
    "Therefore, the things I think it should have must be the reason it is not successful"
    That is not a logical conclusion, because there are potentially unlimited other things you haven't thought of that it doesn't have. And certainly not enough for Portalarium to come to a full stop and change direction.

    Yet we still get people complaining about the single-player version of the game. Apparently they have no interest in community, just as I have no interest in playing an offline game, or in open PvP.
     
  13. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    Sure, I think most of us can definitely agree with that. This is even more true once you finish the main story line in any MMO, whether that is FFXIV, WoW or SotA. I can only speak for myself, but what makes grind in an MMO bearable is a meaningful reason to do it. In the beginning of any MMO it is as simple as grinding to get powerful enough to continue the story. Towards the end there needs to be a better hook. In games like WoW and FFXIV it's doing massive raids against big bosses in the hope to get epic gear! I remember doing this with guildies in both those games and truly enjoyed it because it gave you a sense of accomplishment once you got that sword or piece of armor. FFXIV has similar concepts but also goes a step further by allowing you to specialize you character even further at high levels with higher tier classes. I always thought this was a cool game mechanic.

    In Shroud, once you have completed the main story and the side quests it's really tough to think of a reason to continue to grind. This is actually quite disappointing because we have really cool bosses and I think the dragons look incredible, yet what's the point? I kill a dragon and get a couple of gem fragments, 60 gold and a shovel...ummm...yeah. My point is, the content isn't compelling enough to keep me going. Now for some it's the ability to just keep power leveling their character and it's wonderful that folks have the time and inclination to do that, I do not. I would also imagine most players do not but I could be wrong. It is for this very reason that I feel better loot, in the form of high level magic items, need to be put into the game. At a minimum their should be unique item drops that can be salvaged into an eternal pattern and applied to player made weapons. Just my two cents.
     
  14. Azzamean

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    That is because this had mixed messages about what it was originally. Many people thought it was going to be a new Ultima, that just had optional multiplayer mode (Not a UO.2). I didn't come on board until 2014 so I had it in my head it was a MMO, but I understand and sympathize with people who expected a single player game. Regardless, IMO an MMO is much more about grind. I despise the needless grind of games and look for either community aspects or a reward system that doesn't force me to do the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again. Until the next expansion which continues the cycle.
     
  15. 2112Starman

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    I disagree. Grinding is what keeps people playing games. UO was a grind, you ever run around for hours at a time mining? I did? Did you ever go into the same dung over and over to kill certain monsters, I did.
     
  16. 2112Starman

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    noooo, maybe for a small select set of people (we call them the dance party people). Shroud continues the tradition of UO which was mostly solo players. SOTA up to this point (altered a bit with the LFG feature) is largely a solo play game for the vast number of people playing it (or who would have played it). In fact that is my biggest beef of this game, they focused vastly to much resources on the 5% of people in this game who like to do things like dance parties.
     
  17. Ravicus Domdred

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    I think in UO that was a choice though. You really did not have to grind once you where skilled up. Maybe to get some gold but thats it really.
     
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  18. 2112Starman

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    Funny thing, I dont mind grinding xp in like Tears or other things like crafting. But I have never liked story lines in any game I have played (well rarely). I consider having to go through story lines grinding that I dont like to do. So yes, even story lines are a grind to some people.
     
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  19. Bambino

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    @2112Starman: Let me reiterate a bit. Using UO as a metaphor is perfect. The grind was over after you hit 100. (I didn’t play OSI after is was ruined by trammel so I moved to pre-trammel grey servers - no power scrolls for me). In UO there was s stopping point that gave you a sense of accomplishment - you don’t get that here. My response is the same, re-read my statement that you just quoted.
     
  20. Stundorn

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    and i allways dreamed and thought a MMO especially a sasndbox mmo is about player interactions on a even playing field after some grind (timesink is done) what i allways thought is only there to give that sort of progress feeling.
    I ask myself what incentive to play the people had who played UO for years witrh caps and all. Isnt it to restock your goods, gear and all that?
    Isnt it about preparing guild wars and have enough restock available, about organizing this and all that?

    the f... grind was allways something that hindered or delayed me, because i dont have much time to grind to endgame and i was allways glad it was over to then partake in the endgame and contribute like everyone else and all what it was about then was to have enough restock and become practiced using your build! No matter if some others played 100 times more than me, they may had more restock, but i did good anyway.
    the Grind and levelprocess was allways just a neccessary evil, never understood why this is needed timesink, but then some games had cool endgame, balanced for everybody even a casual players (i use this term only playing time related) one day were ready and equal strong abd could compete in the market and on the battlefield. That is what a sandbox game is.

    But SotA is exactly not that, but about this endless progress.

    the thing is, all that glory around @Lord British who made UO what is maybe still the best sandbox regarding what i think a sandbox RPG is, and now this...

    and @majoria70 this would not be a huge coding or long development time. This is just some Serversettings and ok some adaptions to this of course.
    And boom we have that, we have tons of interdepedencies for players in all aspects. pve, pvp and crafting.

    But i understand people here dont like that and want it like it is.
    The Bummer is, you are very few people and thousand have left because its not that sandbox.
    There are more players playing LoA closed Beta than released SotA, because they like the ruleset more.
    I would still say SotA has the better combat and graphics and also the better emotes for RP and animations and effects and all that.
    But the ruleset and grind to reach a competetive level is so exhausting and imbalanced and immersion breaking when someone can switch from light Archer to Heavy Melee in 3 seconds via deckswitch in a real PvP Situation (not tournament) that its just meh.

    If they reesign in this direction, i bet they would have 5 times the player they have.

    Imagine they advertise this.

    SotA Overhaul.
    All Houses and Deeds up to townsize buyable ingame for igg
    Choose your Role, pick X Trees and master them (cap 100) become XYZ and cooperate and compete with hundreds of different builds.
    For people who like to grind or have multiple chars or professions and abilities they can sell more Char Slots.
    thing is, i am not against people hardcore playing, but it need to be leveld down to make everybody able to compete with a single character.
    If then people have 5 chars and do what they now do with only one char its all fine, it sure effects economy, but it wont effect PvP.

    But i thin thats the snag, all the RPvP people are already gone because of this. @Gorthyn and @Ravicus Domdred are one o the last peoples around, maybe some others.
    And it need not to be like UO or LoA atm, but like SWG where you can flag yourself if you want and follow a faction or make it virtue related or whatever.
    I dont want to force people into this PvP sandbox.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
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