Why make a CoA? What I told my friend.

Discussion in 'The College of Arms' started by Canterbury, Apr 4, 2014.

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  1. Ronan

    Ronan Avatar

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  2. Maximus Katse

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    All Kickstarter backers are inherently founders (the status, not the tier) so not mentioning it there is kind of moot because the Benefactor status didn't exist until after the Kickstarter drive.

    It also says "subject to developer approval." They could deny all submissions on any basis, if they wanted to. But that wouldn't be "good faith" without having a legitimate reason in my opinion.
    The entire context works better.

    This is not exactly a core feature of the project to deliver worth putting up a fight for IMO. If you feel it is that's perfectly valid. I know this was an attractive feature to me that I wanted when I upgraded my pledge the first time.

    It's also my opinion that they're living up to their promise by giving this option to Kickstarter backers and while the methodology might have been modified from what was originally planned, there's still a creative process we each get to particpate to create arms "by us." So "good faith" and delivery seems fulfilled to me. If you think you have a legal case for this and wish to pursue it, I say go for it. I don't think you'll get very far (no offense intended.)
     
  3. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    So, I'm looking at the image you are using as an avatar, and it would seem to fit the rules.
    I think some people would balk at what looks like the Japanese Rising Sun, but I can't find any prohibitions against using it.
    Some people consider it offensive, and yet it is not banned anywhere that I can find.

    So, if that's what you plan to use, I think it's ok.
     
  4. Canterbury

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    Do it! You know you want to :)
     
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  5. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    Citizen of Earth would find the project funded and closed, and should have no expectation of getting any reward from the Kickstarter campaign.
    They would then go to the SotA website and see what was offered there.

    But again, this is a Portalarium issue, and not a College of Arms issue.
     
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  6. NirAntae

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    Anyone who pledged via Kickstarter IS a Founder. That is/was the definition of Founder. Everyone who pledged to that tier or higher on Kickstarter will receive that reward. Until they added the ability to 'grant' founder status, those who got that level or higher on Kickstarter were the only ones eligible for that reward... those who backed after Kickstarter via the SotA website did not. Of course, now it is less cut-and-dry, as you can be Founder without being from Kickstarter (which is now called 'Royal Founder'.) But the reason there is no mention of Founder on Kickstarter is that the term did not exist... at that time, it was simply "everyone who pledges". It was only after Kickstarter, when they offered the reduced-rewards tiers on the website, that they found they needed terms to differentiate between those who would get the rewards listed on Kickstarter (Founders) and those who would get the reduced rewards (Benefactors). However, and this I think is what is causing your concern... once the Kickstarter ends, you cannot edit it. They couldn't go back and add that differentiation on the Kickstarter page.


    As for creating arms... even if you are not a Founder of Virtual Collector or higher, it's still worthwhile creating one. It's still a unique identifier for the community, it reserves your design so no one else can claim it, and, there is at least a possibility that somewhere down the road there will be some sort of quest or the like to be able to earn one in game, so why not go ahead and have your design ready to go in that case?
     
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  7. Canterbury

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    I'd be interested to know why this person would be basing all their beliefs off an old Kickstarter page, rather than the up to date information on the game's website? Whenever I come across a game that finished funding on Kickstarter some time in the past, I absolutely go to its website to see it 1) They are even continuing funding as some games don't after a period of time (Warmachine Tactics I'm looking at you... I truly wanted to fund you...) and 2) To see what the post Kickstarter packages are. I would never base my beliefs on what I might get in a package on an out of date Kickstarter page when, by it's very nature, some Kickstarters offer packages that can no longer be bought when a game goes to funding off its own site, in order to have kept the Kickstarter deals special. SO, long story short, I don't know why this hypothetical human would be working off what it says on Kickstarter, when they have to look at the game's website anyway?
     
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  8. Sunsanvil

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    Actually I'm cooking up something that more closely fits the paradigm....see separate thread. :)
     
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  9. vjek

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    Because the project isn't completed yet, and many/some/all of the kickstarter promises are outstanding.

    I have no interest in having my Family Crest modified by a non-Portalarium third party, nor being forced to have it in the public domain, so I'm not utilizing the current process. No big deal, that's my choice.

    Personally, I have no desire to pursue a legal recourse, @skinned, but someone likely will, on this and several other points that have changed between Kickstarter and EP1 launch. That was my point in quoting the kickstarter site.

    Specifically, the Kickstarter promise of:
    Get your own Family Crest for display on your shield, tabard and house flag, made from a customized image uploaded by YOU! (Submitted Art subject to Developer Approval)
    Is not currently being fulfilled, strictly speaking, to the legal letter. This, I suspect, will drive some folks to the legal recourse option. But I will be genuinely happy to be proven wrong. :D
     
  10. Sunsanvil

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    Lord I hate to open up the can of worms further, but is there any knowledge that the rewards for Founder and Royal Founder are the same? If they were, why have a distinction at all....

    Started a new thread for that. :) Thanks for the positive spin.
     
  11. Canterbury

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    Either the person purchased at the time of the Kickstarter -- in which case they would have been a founder and all of this is moot -- or they have come along at a later date and, rather than relying on information featured on a Kickstarter page that is no longer active, should look to see what was being offered at the game's official site. Because once a Kickstarter is over, and affairs move to the game's official website, that's the more obvious place to be looking for information.

    Anyone who doesn't do that and, somehow manages to buy a package on the game's official website without looking at what's in it, and just presuming it "might be" the same as on the Kickstarter page, isn't a very good consumer.
     
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  12. Sir Frank

    Sir Frank Master of the Mint

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    Assuming somebody feels that strongly about it, I would guess it would come down to a definition of "good faith effort".
    But still, it's a Portalarium issue, and not a College of Arms issue.
     
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  13. Maximus Katse

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    You actually brought up a point I haven't thought of - not wanting your arms being public domain. That's a very good reason not to do it.

    It really can't be any other way; using anything where rights are retained by a third party would be nothing but trouble for Portalarium. Even if the originally implied "create and upload" process existed with 100% end-user created artwork, rights would still have to be relinquished for it to be usable.
     
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  14. vjek

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    Oh for certain. I'd be perfectly content giving those up to Portalarium, directly. No issue there, completely understood that would be necessary.
     
  15. Maximus Katse

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    Makes sense. If I were Portalarium I wouldn't want to deal with a legal rights portfolio of this nature or potential magnitude either ;)
     
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  16. Canterbury

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    Given that most family CoAs have been kicking around for 100s of years and aren't owned by 99.9% of the people who lay claim to them (having the same surname doesn't cut it no matter what 100s of websites and stores try and tell people with the CoA mugs, keyrings, scrolls, etc, that they make a business flogging to consumers), I'd genuinely be interested to know of a family CoA that has stayed out of the public domain all this time -- and how it did that, too.
     
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  17. NirAntae

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    But it wouldn't be giving it to Portalarium directly anyway. You would have to agree to public domain. And I believe this specific point is part of why they decided to go in this direction in the first place.
     
  18. LoneStranger

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    Relinquishing rights doesn't have to be to the public domain. You can grant Portalarium rights to use it in the game for everyone to see, and they could promise to only let your character use them.

    (or, if the crest is permanent on a crafted item, they could be stolen or given out, but only you have the ability to get them crafted.)
     
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  19. NirAntae

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    But if you don't release it to public domain, what happens when people publish a screen shot and your CoA appears in it? Or makes fan art and uses it?
     
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  20. NirAntae

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    This is all just discussion anyway, however. We are only passing along what Portalarium told us. We can't make any changes to those things, if you want to affect change, you have to take it to Port directly.
     
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