Why the Glyph System's random element doesn't add all that much to the game

I think a lot of people don't really understand why people are against the Glyph system, and continue to bring up things like "I like that it's random so it's not so boring" to justify it. The problem people are having isn't with having a system that has a bit more randomness, the problem is the way in which that randomness expresses itself, which is primarily in the controls, and not at all the gameplay.

So a little bit of game design theory here: Randomness in games comes on a scale: Input Randomness and Output Randomness. Input Randomness is when a mechanic in the game confronts the player with a random set of variables that the player can devise a solution to. Output randomness is when the player gives a command to the game and the game gives a random result to the players action. For example, Dungeons and Dragons is an output-random game, the player declares an attack, rolls a die, and thereby randomizes whether or not the attack succeeds. A game like Bejeweled or Puzzle Quest on the other hand is an input random game, the game sets up a random game board, but the player is in full control over how they match the color tiles they are presented with. A game like SotA contains both input and output randomness, for example, the glyphs you have on your screen are input random, how much damage they do or if a spell fizzles is output random.

So basically:
Input Random is: Random Event -> Decision
Output Random is: Decision -> Random Event

In video games the prevailing wisdom is that input randomness is better than output randomness. People have more fun when they can confront a random situation with tools they can rely on than to have their tools give them random results.

Another important thing to note is that random in the mathematical (and thereby game design) sense means chosen by chance from a known set of possible outcomes. The outcome of a random event is only unexpected or unpredictable if the person experiencing it doesn't know the full set of possible outcomes, or the full set of possible outcomes is too large for them to foresee every single one. This is important because it means that random systems can be learned. Players can develop an intuition for random events in their games, which isn't the same as knowing the outcome, but knowing how to roll with every possible outcome.


The reason why the Glyph system really doesn't add all that much to the game is because it adds very little randomness to the actual gameplay. It's obviously an attempt to create higher input randomness in combat, but the number of good decisions a player can make based on the random input of the glyph system is very limited. You have basically four choices:

Use, Stack, Combo, Discard

For the most part however, the way you make those choices is not at all determined by what Glyphs you are getting, but by what the strategy for your deck is. When you have it set up for a certain combo it's likely that you will choose combo every single time, because there is simply no real benefit to not using the combo when you can. If you have your deck set up for healing you're going to always stack and use glyphs depending on whether or not your target is hurt, not based on what glyphs are available.

The strategy of your deck simply isn't heavily influenced by the random input of glyphs, the only thing that is somewhat randomized by the draw is how quickly the various abilities are available again.

From a gameplay standpoint you're pretty much playing a very standard MMO where the only thing that's random is the cooldown of your abilities.

However, in order to achieve this the system has to introduce a HUGE amount of randomness into your controls, and that's something that games generally should never do, because immersion is only achievable when the player can learn to use the controls so naturally that they no longer think about the controls at all, but instead only think about what they want to do in the game.

Not knowing what buttons to push until you have checked the bar to see where your glyphs popped up simply isn't randomness in gameplay, it's purely randomness in the controls. It creates a barrier between the player and the world they are trying to immerse themselves in instead of presenting them with interesting choices.


With all of that said, I hope people have a better sense for why people are so much against the Glyph system. It's not that they don't enjoy games where you get to make more decisions through an input random system, it's that the number of actual gameplay decisions you make through the Glyph system is very limited, while the amount of management that goes into your controls to accommodate the randomness of the system is in the way of immersion.

 

Good post. I liken it to my number keys rearranging while I'm playing or whack-a-mole. It's hard to strategize on the field when I don't know by the time I get to my opponents if I'll be able to kick or stab or heal myself (wat?). That part of randomness isn't just the tactical element, it's the overall battle.

 

Well, I like that the input is different so you cannot easily macro attack-heal-attack-heal-attack-target next enemy... Also there are skills (mindlock/mindwipe) and most of innates in the focus tree which will help you beat the input randomness to a degree. I think there is a lot of room for improvements, but I actually come to like the idea that you cannot use all your moves every time.

 

I think that a lot of people DO understand why people are against the glyph system.
It's just that not all people will agree with those premises.

Since you used my quote as to imply I don't get what you are saying. Let me be explicit here.
I fully understand the issues, I have seen the arguments back and forth several times.
I could probably list more flaws with the system than any randomly selected opponent of the glyph system.

However as with so many other gameplay elements it comes down to personal preferences.

So even while I fully understand your arguments based on your own preferences I still will never agree with them due to personal preferences.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Quite the opposite.
So to someone who likes it there are very few arguments which will persuade them and likewise for someone who dislike them there are very few arguments who would persuade them in turn.

Just like someone who loves PvP and hate crafting will never be persuaded to do crafting from arguments.

So please leave such false innuendos outside of productive dialog.

Now where I am worried - from a totally different angle - is that it is such a large chunk of the population where their personal
Preference differs from the main design.
And that most of those don't even like the idea of building static decks given the current implementation.
That is a big issue.
So regardless of my own personal preference I've on several occasions tried to argue for solutions where those who opt out of the random draw, would still enjoy combat using a static bar.

 

The discussion I had with you prompted me to write this, but it's neither about you, nor an attack on you.

 

I'm ok with the ongoing innovation around glyph randomness. There is more to gain than there is to lose, really. I was stomping around in LOTRO this past weekend. And while it is a great game, I have to say that the combat skill rotation - same old all the time, more or less even if I try to make it not be - gets a bit dull. That a developer is willing to take a risk to try to push the envelope towards something a little more engaging than cookie cutter builds and rotations, is a positive sign to me. If it works it will be great. If it doesnt, we can always lock the skills on the bar.

 

I had such high hopes for this game. But the combat system is just another press button 1,2,3,4..... and on and on similar WoW, Rift and many other MMORPG's the only real differance is that you now have to watch the bar so you can press an appropriate attack, deffense or heal and those come up randomly. Of course you can lock your glyph, but then it is exactly like the above mentioned games. Customizing your characters combat style should have been all about your skill choices.

 

This is my take on the subject. Disclaimer - it's a personal opinion, not intended as a persuasive argument and may not convince anyone anyway. But if it's a small amount of food for thought it may help.

I played Magic - the Gathering quite a bit with my boys, and loved it. The procedure was:

Prepare your playing deck (select your desired skill set)
Shuffle your cards (deck is randomly dealt)
Bring your deck to the table (you come with your skill set, I come with mine)
We live or die on the deal (on any day, I could beat you or vice versa - depending how the cards fall)

There is an element of randomness, chance, and dare I say excitement in the system. If you are playing poker, and get a good hand, you win big. Similarly a level 30 character MAY be able to take out a level 70 character, on a good day. It's a leveller.

Now if you find that you are consistently losing battles, the answer in Shroud is the same as in MTG - revise your deck. Lose some points on skills that are not helping you, and invest in skills/glyphs that look more promising. And each battle is a new round!

I know that there have been occasions when I have been battling a ghost, I am JUST holding my own, and I'm SHOUTING for one of my 5 Death Touch glyphs to come up! Or a healing touch - that will do, and keep me alive a bit until the Death Touch appears.

So I find it useful to look at Shroud like MTG with extras - we also have movement and tactics. The PvPers among us are really skilled at running, and co-ordinating attacks. (I'm better at standing still and melee-and-magic-attacking mobs). But the tactics introduce a powerful extra dimension; coupled with the MTG-like structure I have to say that I really love the system.

 

But it's not just MTG with extras, nor was it ever intended to be? Just saying.

 

Not to mention there's the whole "it's still an MMO with people running around, not just sitting there managing cards" aspect. That makes things different depending on whether you're playing a mage (WASD backwards and sideways while you stack mezzes and nukes) or a warrior (try to chase down someone as fast or faster than you while simultaneously clicking and dragging icons at the bottom of your screen to set up trips and combos to stop the guy and do damage at the same time, making sure you're still facing the guy when you finally do click the card hoping the damn thing is still there by the time you reach him). It isn't just a card game.

 

You discuss one aspect of the glyph system, the randomness factor, without accounting for ways you can strategize to make randomness work to your advantage, or to help mitigate it as well. There is a lot more to the glyph system than just a hand of randomly dealt glyphs - you can have abilities of your choice locked (bold for big point, up to 5 abilities can be locked). You can run multiple decks and swap between them. You can run the minimum glyphs you need to avoid slugs or you can add in additional ones. There are skills such as mind lock and mind wipe that allow you to combat randomness further.

The level of strategic gameplay the current incarnation of the glyph system has isn't because of the fact that glyphs are dealt to you at random and you have to decide what to do with them once they are, it's in the fact that you have the freedom to adjust the relative level of randomness based off of hour you build your deck. It can be as simple or complicated as you want it to be. Mastering the system does have a bit of a learning curve, but (personal opinion) that's a good thing as it adds more depth to the game.

@Dewderonomy - You don't have to click and drag abilities to combo or stack them. Click R, then click the hotkeys of the 2 abilities you'd like to use. Right now the major problem melee has is that (specifically) death magic hits hard and self-heals too much (100% of the damage dealt is pretty darn high). There's nothing stopping someone who uses melee abilites from running light armor for the movement speed buffs (And the INCREDIBLY strong Attack Speed passive and active buffs). Even in heavy armor, there's the Charge ability in Shields, which also knocks down your target, along with stun/knockdown abilities in bludgeoning, polearm has a root. The thing stopping melee from being as strong as mage, right now, is purely the amount of self-healing mages get with death magic.

 

Disagreeing is not necessarily due to a lack of understanding. You word your opinions well though.

 

Of course this topic is not about me, I get that as well.

...but.... This is what you wrote:
"I think a lot of people don't really understand why people are against the Glyph system, and continue to bring up things like "I like that it's random so it's not so boring" to justify it."
You are explicitly saying that you think that people that say what I say "don't really understand".
Whether intentional or not that is a direct attack.

You are simply trying to belittle people who have a different personal preference than yourself and trying to motivate such with arguments which are not taking such preferences into account.
Which is an inflammatory excercise in futility.

 

It is not just MTG, it is really similar at its core - making a deck, randomly dealt glyphs... unlike MTG it is more real-time and less turn-based, but the randomness part is really similar.

 

The hotbar/glyph system removes FREEDOM from the player.

The freedom to cast a fireball at a door, to burn it down. To draw your sword and swing it in the breeze. Etc. (and a million other amazing possibilities) The freedom to utilize any leaned spell or skill, at will. What attracts me to games is freedom.

 

You can still cast fireball at doors (they do not burn though), or gust at switches, those actually switch. Hotbar has nothing to do with it. I can agree that freedom is limited, why I need to invite others in party before I can heal or resurrect them? However it is quite independent issue from hotbar.

 

We CAN? So you can cast a spell at anything now? If so, that is good.

 

Only some spells (e.g. fireball).

 

ok

 

The glyph system is not what removes those particular examples of freedom from the game - it's the need to target something before you can use non-AOE spells at it. While that is part of combat, it's not tied to the glyph system. I also think it'd be cool to be able to use spells to attack destroyables (for example, the destroyable brick and cave walls that you can punch through right now).

As far as freedom goes though... this game has freedom expressed in a thousand other ways, and the glyph system itself is an expression of that freedom... free to use glyphs, or to use a more traditional cooldown system, freedom to build your deck however you want, etc etc.