Will there be Skillsystem changes?

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Stundorn, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. Diab Blackbow

    Diab Blackbow Avatar

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    All the schools have similar issues, I just think Death Magic has it the worst since there are so many undead enemies in the game. A fire mage would have issues with fire elementals, bosses, and more then one fire magic user in the party.
     
  2. Stundorn

    Stundorn Avatar

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    All spells with an effect on enemies are overwritten. Ice slowdown or Fireflies, Daz Ray.....

    I am all for classless, tons of options, i am not against to be nit able to kill a special sort of Mobs, because resistant, but when intriducing this after persistence they need to have this balanced to all schools.
    Same for my examples about physical damage and ghosts and elementals etc...

    They should, if they dont plan to do sone changes, tell people that classless means you can not expect to build an Archetype with a handfull of skilltrees and think you would be able to do all content or partake und pvp. To do this you need to branch out in almost all magic trees, weapon and armor some tactics and also focus and subterfuge tree to Minimum raise stats.
    This should be clear because i think most players, and you can see that from the posts of New players and also what they think is the path they start with is about.
    They all think they start as an Archer ir Fighter or Mage. The people write they do an Archer or a Mage, they think we have this 3 rough drafts and dont expect to need to branch out into so many skilltrees imho.
    Everybody i talked to said that. Oh i then build an xyz Style of character from the classless system.
    When i started i studied all trees and want to choose something that fits a viking wizard a seidmen, so Flashs, Water, maybe some Moon for Mani (Mana) the moongood etc...
    Figuring out oh you Minimum need Sun and Earth to buff stats.
    I would more like to have only one stat buff possible. To decide what do i want to buff. People can still have them all if they want but only beneficial to be more versatile, but not in seconds, but maybe with preparation. The people who skill more "roles" can then choose today i go as x and tomorrow as y.
    And those who just dont want it, because whatever can develop their unique and only role they want to play.

    I sure know that many gamers have tons of time and will to grind all day long, having fun branching out into all trees and level that.

    I have absolutely no problem with that, but due to pvp and economy and also maybe challenging groupplay they need to restrict that, so that a casual gamer who want to level only one role and then partake in all aspects if the game can do it and is competetive and can make his contribution to groups and pvp.

    If you ask me today, i'm maybe trying to do more trees, but i loose what i wanted to be and to loose identification with my char, abd that is the worst thing that can happen to everybody and imho many players who realize they cannot only be what the wanted in the first place will maybe complain and then quit.
    I know at least one for sure and it's not me. And many people i speak to about this, shake their head abd say: really, but that is crap. And they are right.

    Nerf chars, nerf buffs, nerf skills, bring some diametral things back and also nerf mobs to adjust that.
    Even SP is planned as group play with companions.

    I dont know what i or they will do,but i dont like it the way it is and it drives me away from the game, although i also like many things, but with this i need to do too much compromise.

    Somewhat tired to discuss and argue, so i wait what happens.
     
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  3. Sara Dreygon

    Sara Dreygon Avatar

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    Nope... never. Magic is for witches ;). I will allow witches to cast it on me though... I'm not crazy :D.
     
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  4. Sara Dreygon

    Sara Dreygon Avatar

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    Things get complicated the more complex you make your combat deck and you get less powerful leveling skills you use 1% of the time instead of increasing the skills you use 90% of the time.

    Someone buffing for 10 seconds at the beginning of a fight with me is going to be dead before the last cast. There's something to be said about specialization and simplification which is my thing as everything I'm over thinking in a fight costs me one swing of my sword. My decks all have about the same skills in about the same areas... just different armor, maybe a shield, maybe a 2-hander, maybe dual wield but my build is HIGHLY specialized, competitive, and fun to play.

    I was told when I started playing that "you need healing", "you need magic in your deck", "you'll need magic buffs", "nobody wears plate". I'm glad I didn't listen to everyone and forged my own path the way I enjoy playing and it's worked out fine for me.

    My advice to all new players is challenge yourself, play the way you want, don't listen to others, and you'll be fine.
     
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  5. Hornpipe

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    Try to say this when wearing a light armor . After, we talk ;) Heavy armor is one of the few non magic tree /equipement which gives decent resistances.

    Also, I'm wondering with who you are comparing yourself. People with the same level as you ? Things get more complicated than "I want to be this, so ok, I'll be this". If you need to play twice as much to be as efficient as the one who can heal efficiently and use ice shield, that's not a fair deal. There is a minimal balance to reach in this game. Let's say to a new player that he needs to play 5 000 hours to be as competitive than the guy who played 3 000 if he want to stick with his/her play style. What will be his/her reaction, in your opinion, if he is interested with the pvp part of the game ?

    You can think what you want of me, but the fact is I experienced different duels before giving my point of view. And as far as I know, nobody never gave a valid argument against the fact that yes, it's faster and more efficient to train 10 defensive skills/passives and 3 healing skills and use them as long as you can cumulate and stack etc... than focusing everything on 1 specific tree like you do (erh oh no sorry, you don't). Maybe that's theory, but that's also about logic. Even in PvE, I experienced a huge difference with that.

    Your idea about the skills you use the most is not relevant here, I fear. As long as the skills you use 90% of the time will get extremely difficult to raise past the level 130, you won't get as much bonuses as you would do with the skills you use 1% of the time... or should I say 100% of the time. Yes, because you know that well : Sympathy of Stones is for witches. You trained it. You uses it 100% of the time. The sames goes for every spell which gives you attunement and then, resistances.

    Of course, you can live without balance in a game. But I'm not sure that this will help the game itself. Personaly, I enjoyed this debate. But it goes nowhere. You want to see those things in your own way, and that's what I do too. But objectively, there is a lack of argumentation on one side, in my point of view. At the very end, @Chris and his team will be the only decision makers here. And if I have an advice for them : "Don't make the game with only some people in mind. Make the game as great as it can be for everyone." Time will tell if Shroud of the Avatar will get ride of the buffing madness and fighting slowness.

    PS : sorry, for the multiple editions, but quite often, I need to add many things and correct myself :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  6. Jezebel Caerndow

    Jezebel Caerndow Avatar

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    You can do anything I can do, there balance achieved.
     
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  7. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    lol
     
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  8. Stundorn

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    Stop working, buy a Robot to get my dogs out and pay a nanny for my kid to play 16 hrs / day?

    C'mon you are a nice man and really want to help us, but this doesnt help.
    The measure is somewhere between you and the most casual who plays with fun since persistence.
    80 is a good base and 100 would be a good cap. And if people can only have 10 skills at 100 then they can choose what they want to GM.
    Still odd to need to get everything to 80, but this is manageable.
    We all know that most players :
    1. Dont have the time and the will to play that much
    2. That most players just dont post on the forums to express how dull Spawncamping/ grinding is.
    3. The Numbers in total are low because of this and many other flaws the game still has.

    Mac, with all respect i grant you to be the highest character and all that, but in the long term it's not healthy for the game if this stays like it is.
    All people start and say i try to be the Mage, Archer, Fighter...
    To figure out it's best to level all.
    Even Sarah has all Magic leveled, she might not use it actively, but passively she profits a lot from having all magic skilled.
    It's Anti RP and even if 99% dont care for RP it's still an RPG or try to be one.

    To make it short. Not everybody can do what you do.
    The most people cannot, not to say the either dont want it.
     
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  9. Tsumo2

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    Patience is a virtue.
     
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  10. FrostII

    FrostII Bug Hunter

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    Yes, it is.... I am a fan of it.
    But, with release on the near horizon, we need to move forward and fix some glaring problems - this thread is what that is all about.
     
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  11. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Opinion: :rolleyes:

    Statement on topic: I like skill systems.

    Thank you and have a great weekend!
     
  12. Superbitsandbob

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    I am not sure why the word limits is such a dirty one. :) There is a reason pretty much all RPG's have them.

    I'd be interested to know how the players for a limitless skill system envisage content creation and balance in a couple of episodes time.

    If as an example, there is a 7500 point skill point limit, the devs have a much easier time creating new content as it can be focused. Also at some point they know that the majority of people will get close to the cap, thus meaning more people will experience most of the content. Looking ahead to future episodes they will find themselves in a situation where because no one is limited, there will be a huge level range in players and they will need to make sure they have enough content to satisfy everyone within that range and looking at how many scenes are still cloned, I'm not sure they have the resources for that. I think we should also realise that SOTA is going to end up being a niche MMO and money will be tight.

    It would have been sensible to have something like:

    Episode 1: A hard cap which allows players to experience the content, maybe even have it low enough, god forbid, that people just can't burn everything down.
    Episode 2: Increase the cap to something they are happy with which allows them to comfortably create enough content for all players in those level ranges.
    Episode 3: Repeat.

    The current system is great for the players who can afford to dedicate their life to it and want to be the best but it is self defeating. At some point in the games timeline the devs will have to make a decision where resources go, and that will be where most of the players are. Somewhere in the middle.
     
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  13. Hornpipe

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    Let's say that you are serious. Honestly, I'm not sure about that but I will act like if you are serious for the sake of this debate. Because what you are telling us gives me a chance to clarify this discussion.

    First, not everyone can play ten hours each day like you do. I got a job. I have a family. And when you play 7 000+ hours, I can play less than 3 000 hours (and I'm lucky to have this much in my situation). Caps (soft or hard but I prefer soft ones personaly) are precisely here to give me a small chance in a fight with people like you. Not equality but more something like : "I won't die all the time" if I'm smart enough. That's why every game have caps, soft or hard ones : for balance's sake.

    Secondly, in every single MMO RPG game, even those with a class system, you have this type of thing : you can make the same choice as the most competitive players, play as much as they do and you'll get the same chances. There is no new point here. That's not what "balance" is about, I think.

    In every MMO game, people are talking about balance between classes aka play styles. Shroud of the Avatar is a class less system, but that doesn't mean that balance is not important.

    People will actually make different choices of play style, like they do in every other games, and they will expect to be able to compete in a fair way with every other players who made different choices.

    Take me as an exemple. My play style is based on speed and offensivity. That's how I enjoy SotA. But, in this game, that's not competitive at all in PvP and even in the hardest PvE situations because most of my archery attacks are useless. Four out of seven skills are good to be deleted. The three others are good but are mitigated when the target stack six or more defensive buffs (Heals over time included).

    I had duels with people who use all the defensive skills and with people who don't use much of them. The difference is huge (huge like I always lose in one case and always win in the other). I don't even talk about the guys who use a chest mail plate with clothes everywhere else to get better defense without fizzling the magic... shields. Then, I built a deck with a lot of defensive skills myself, and while I was unable to solo easily most of the things before, I can do that now. I even challenged a fire mage who GMed (and more) every fire skill to kill me. I stayed in his fire ring for quite a long time while he was attacking me and without evaporate he has been unable to kill me (I can share the log with @Chris on demand).

    Is that satisfying ? No, because people will naturaly feel compelled to do the same. Then, there is no classless system. There are skills that you HAVE to train.

    So what ? Shroud of the Avatar is a game but it is also a business. The goal is to have a good game, aka a game that everyone can enjoy aka a game that people will be willing to pay and play. 50000 players as a goal. SotA can do that but it must give itself the means to do that.

    Currently, the skill system as it is, is not satisfying for :
    - people interested with PvP and high end PvE who doesn't want to play hybrid mages, and people who want to play their own way in general,
    - roleplayers as there are big inconsistencies in this system, including the way evil artifacts are included,
    - casual players who are interested with PvP while the current skill system makes the soft caps useless, as long as you will get better chances when training a lot of skills slightly than when specializing.

    Now, this is not a trial. The game is good for many other reasons. The soft cap system is great. The developpers are smart guys ; they proved that they were able to find solutions for a lot of sensitive problems like, the main one, performance. I really enjoy to be part of this community even if it means that I have to compose with your personality. I won't quit the game because people don't listen to me. As I love challenge, I will continue to try to be more competitive in my own way, even if it requires much more time to do so.

    But at one point, people has to say why the combat feels clunky, why pvp population in SotA could not even fill a tugboat and why some people keep complaining here about roleplay and caps. At first, I thought that having @Kigu Starfish (Kor) in the team would be a great thing honestly. But with time and as he seems to advocate for this "very complex" system, I feel like he can't see my point (which seems to be shared by some others) because he is not part of the players who are annoyed with its flaws.

    Of course, you can defend your opinion here if you want, but if the game is made for you and a few others, that's what we will get in the end. And personaly, I don't want this game to fail.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  14. kaeshiva

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    The beauty of our current softcap system achieves exactly this - if you invest 10 times the hours of play, you are maybe 5-10% "better" in terms of benefit acquired from raising those skills higher. Sure, there's a minimum investment to get all core skills to a reasonable level, but the power increase for investing additional millions of experience into skills is minimal.

    While I'm all for people being able to "compete" - I strongly feel that if someone DOES invest 10x the playtime, they deserve to have these minimal increases that they have grinded, and earned. This by no means makes a guaranteed victory for them, as there is so much skill/build diversity, deck diversity, and skill disparity that someone with a much lower time investment can absolutely be competitive.

    I've invested far, far more time in the game than a lot of folks, and they'd wipe the floor with me in a PvP fight because I'm simply not set up for PvP. This was fairly evident when new players came into the game, months after I started, and quickly proceeded to be able to solo bosses in half the time it took me to get there. This was due to more focused deckbuilding, carefully planned builds, and a large part of it is due to just they are better at the 'action game' aspect than I am. I am old and slow - these young kids are jumping to avoid this and moving to avoid that and chasing things around and etc. My skills are significantly higher, yet they can constantly outperform me. For having played twice as long, I may have some skills at 100 that they only have at 80, but the benefit is a small one, and easily surmounted by player ability, or more focused skill choices/deck setups.

    Someone who has invested months to get their key damage / weapon skill up to 130-140 deserves to do extra damage with it. If raising it that high gave no benefit, why in the world would any one do it? What would be the point of continuing to play, grind, etc. after that point? I mean, I suppose you could still pvp people after you capped, and that could be fun if its your thing, but for those not interested in PvP, if we can't continue to grow our characters well there's nothing left to do.
     
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  15. kaeshiva

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    This is actually a fair statement; having been long term friends with Mac he's been able to demonstrate to me over and over that if I set up my deck in a similar manner and STOP BEING STUBBORN ABOUT IT I'm able to do most of what he can do.
    I have no idea what level he is now, but I'm fairly sure he's got 5 , 10, (20?) times my total investment at the very least. He's got skills at 120 that I've left at 100 all over the place.
    I fail a bit at the 'action game' stuff - like jumping at the right times, but from a concept/deck standpoint, yes, absolutely, I can do what he can do.

    I may do a bit less damage, and get hit a little bit harder, but as a long student of the School of Mac it has become evident to me over and over again that the disparity between his capability and mine has more to do with my lack of manual dexterity than lower "stats" on my character. He has an edge - and he's EARNED that edge - but we're talking a few points of avoidance/resist from passives and attunement. And I can make up a lot of that with gear. If I follow his instructions and use the skills I'm told (I argue with him constantly, I don't -like- that skill, etc. etc. etc.) - then I often surprise myself with what I can achieve, even though playing at that level is often way outside my comfort zone. I for one am thankful that someone with Mac's level of dedication and time investment has always had the patience to coach others and show people new ways to do things instead of just staying in an isolationist Macbubble of grind grind grind.

    The most important thing really that I think you gain by investing all those additional hours is not the minimal skill increases you get, but its the knowledge and capability of playing, the deep understanding of how the game systems work, and the long long hours of trial, error, and trial again, and achieving a level of comfort and familiarity with what you're doing.

    That being said, designing content around what high end players are doing is a bit shortsighted. With this sort of skill system you will always have those people way ahead of the pack. Historically, the solution has been to slam the door behind those players via nerfs to skills or content making what they were doing now impossible or extremely more difficult or in some cases simply not worth doing. And this is a shame. No matter what threshold you choose to design content around, without hard caps, there will always be players who can steamroller it - some with significantly less hours invested than others. Decay is not the answer here, its hurting the people behind the frontrunners a lot more than its hurting the frontrunners.
     
  16. Hornpipe

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    All of this is not about being stubborn. It's about having a true classless system where people can play their own way, their own role. I don't want to do things like he does. I am absolutely not interested with a ONE class system where you have to train everything and build approximatively the same decks as the neighbor or his neighbor. I want to be able to do this mine own way.

    Currently, I can't. I get punished because of my play style. I don't care if I can do what he can do when using the same tactics. I want to have my own.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  17. kaeshiva

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    Oh I absolutely agree.
    I was saying I can do what he does - not that I enjoy it! Its way outside my comfort zone, and typically something that after figuring out that I can do it, I don't do again. I think going through the experience has taught me more about the game and how things work, and I've been able to use some of that knowledge to tweak my own playstyle, but I agree with you completely that the skill system, as it stands, encourages widespread mastery of things in every single treee and does nothing to reward specialization. In fact specialists are punished with higher decay on above 100 skills. If we got rid of the punishment mechanics and focused instead on encouragement/benefit of speicalization I think we'd see a lot more variety in builds. Most of the people who do non-traditional things do it for roleplay reasons not because its more effective. I've been sporting a sword/wand combo for months that I've rarely (and only recently, in fact) seen another character do. Its certainly not as effective as other options, but it gives me the versatility to fight different sorts of things as I wander around gathering stuff. I know people who use a certain weapon/armor type purely for aesthetics and cause its what they like. I know someone who roleplays a druid and wont use metal armor/weapons. I see people who want to be a 'ranger' class wearing leather and running around with a pet bear whose damage is negligible but they've named it and they have a story. It would be nice if the skill system supported such choices.
     
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  18. Hornpipe

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    Indeed, because that's what everyone can expect with a role playing game, actually. ;)
     
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  19. Stundorn

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    that exactly underlines the imho "weak" skillsystem - if i'm asked to follow this route, then i quit - good to all who can be concinced to use this or that skill and combo, but if i loose identification with my character, than there is no RP what goes deep into skills and gamemechanics.
    very true
    imho its no shame, its to create an even playfield for all players in a sandbox to make all sorts of players and styles to play more or less equal strong and be able to interact within each other. if i think of PvP - the actual system is the worst i can imagine.
    same here - skilled fire - saw i can do it, but dislike it this way and loose identification with Stundorn Stureon the Seidmen.
    actually doing some blades - with Mac's help also - its all not against Mac or wahtever, he is helpfull as hell and kind person, and he's a canadian, hell i have family there, i will go to Canada next summer if all goes well for the firt time since 1999 ^^ i love Canada, was there a lot in my childhood, from Winnipeg/ Manitoba ( iirc Mac is from somewhere in Saskatchewan) to Quebec, Halifax, St. Laurent river was cold as hell, but fun. Toronto, Burlington/Hamilton where my family lives and down to US, Maine, NY, even to Key West ;) love it and as a german able to do that in the 90ies was very influencing me of course. Oh sorry - derailing :)
    b2t
    ok lost what i wanted to say :p
    I like a lot of the game, but as it stands a lot of people wont do the compromises and play it.
    Simple as that, and therefore i would like to see some major changes.
    If possible make it so, that players like Mac or Andartianna can play the way they like further or give them other incentives to play that much they like and want and do whatever they want - and i know Mac also want to help players and all that. I dont want nerfs that he leaves the game, hell no.
    But conpromises need to be done on both sides imho.

    ok - doing some music now, maybe i will sheathe my sword later and do some adventuring, training, leveling, immersing and regenerate some hope.

    Bless to you all - One Love ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  20. Jezebel Caerndow

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    If you had the time, you could do what I can do. You do not need to do exactly what I do, but you could. I do play a ton, but you will eventually get to where you want to be, and you can do it your own way. When I help people with things, the first thing I ask is what they want to do, and try and use what they want to use to achieve that goal. You can play roles if you so choose to, that is your choice. If that role limits you, that is also your choice, you can form a party with others with other skills to over come that as well. Now just because you want to make that choice and you feel that is right for you, does not make it right to push that onto other people, trying to get the game changed to suit you but not others is not the right way to go about things. just play the way you want to play, I will play the way I want to play, and everything will be fine.

    Yes I'm higher level, but I don't go around and just pvp every person I see, in fact I hardly ever pvp, I am not like that, and if you do find a really high level person who is picking on you, call me, THOSE are the type of people I like to kill, I am an anti griefer. I just don't see this happen often at all in this game, most of the griefing has been done through thievery it seems. This competitive mindset that we are competing with each other baffles me, I have not pvped any of you, there is a WAY higher chance I will help someone before I would kill them. Can't we just cooperate with each other instead of compete with each other?
     
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