World Maps: The Minimum Expectations of 21st Century RPGS

How about something like this? This was the 3D overland map/view of the Indie-RPG Chaos Chronicles. Unfortunately it was cancelled due to legal problems... I think the scale and atmosphere is cool and fits very well with the world and the surroundings. You can see the party very small at the end of the broken line. Of course a zoom would be cool to see the Avatar a bit bigger... Imagine animals roaming around on this map/view and dragons flying by...

 

The devs have said they plan on putting animations on it. The example given was paper fire animation coming from an area under siege.

To me, that sounds just as cheesy.

 

Now that's an overhead map I could get immersed in.

 

Wow, just wow, that's the sort of map I thought we were getting :-(

Look, at this point if the devs don't clarify what map we are getting I will have to start rolling back my pledge and consider asking for a refund of monies already invested.
Out of interest, exactly what are the conditions involved asking for a downgrade/refund?

 

No refunds. It's in the pledge policy.

 

Hopefully, if this is in fact a preview what's to come, they'll at least make it multicolored like the old cloth maps...

 

Yea, sure, gorgeous, but like I was saying in the other thread, the crux of the issue is that we seem to be at odds with the devs in terms of what this layer of the game is: Is it a map, or is it an overland view? The two may have some overlap in function but they are NOT the same. From my post in the other thread:

I think it might be helpful to backup for a sec and clarify/set some terminology: Map versus Overland View.

What we were shown in R4 is in fact a map. No matter how much it gets dressed up it will still be just a map. It would perhaps be best to think of it as little more than the cloth map which is such a fundamental feature of RG games: oh so necessary, but ultimately static in function. From that perspective the devs could have it easy: a simple, static map would meet the case (perhaps pan and zoomable with the ability to place parchment stickies with our own notes a-la Ultima Underword). Heck I'd settle for a really good PDF I can print tabloid size at Staples for $4.

The crisis that many of us are feeling is that the map seems to have surreptitiously taken over what we thought was going to be "the other half" of the game: the Overland View, which in simple terms looked to have been a "zoomed out" view of the not too distant surroundings (as it was in Ultima 4). I for one never saw it as "the map", but rather more of a "change in scale" and not usable at all as a map in that you'd never be able to zoom that far out (hence you still need a static map of some sort). I saw it as something which was going to make our fragmented world not feel so fragmented.

Point being, its not that we don't like the "map", rather it is the omission of the "overland view" which is so very jarring. In other words any map is no substitute because the two were not synonymous in the first place.

The real issue comes down to Starr's post where he suggested we would be spending something like <10% of our time on this layer. In the case of a map, thats true (maybe even less), but when many of us saw the early demos of an overland view (again, very distinct from "map"), thats something we might easily spend 50% of our time in (at least during the solo campaign, if we take Ultima 4-7 as an overall gameplay cue).

Point is, if the team at Portalarium, after more than half the forcasted dev period is behind us, see this game as consisting of nothing more than a ton of disconnected cells with nothing but a map to navigate among them, with no overland view layer at all, I'm seriously disappointed but I don't know if there is any hope in getting them to turn a rather radical corner at this juncture. Not saying we shouldn't continue to debate, discuss, and share, but before we repeatedly put forward suggestions for esthetic variations on a layer of the game which may never exist let see if we can get the team to A) admit that this layer is completely missing at this time and B) find out it it even possible to implement it.

PS we really have too many different threads going on this same topic. I don't have all the time in the world Portalarium but if you could use a few more moderators to try and curb this sort of thing, PM me and I'll see if I can lend a hand.

 

By posting overland maps/view from other games we see what we could get in SotA. Especially if those maps are from an independent dev team with few employees.

But I agree. We need to know if the devs want to have an overland view or just a map. Better still would have been if we would have known this during the Kickstarter campaign...
If they want to just have a map to travel from point A to point B then make it a map like in Dragon Age. This is what maps are meant for. They are not meant for travelling around on or shoving a flag from hex to hex. You click on discovered locations and fast travel there - with maybe the occasional random encounter on the way.
If it should be an overland view then please let us have a real overland view which looks gorgeous and realisitic an alive - a place where you can get lost in and where you love to just wander around in...

 

The problem is, that the devs don't seem to be saying much about it. There was a small nod to it in one of the deep dives, but as to all of our concerns and suggestions, there has been nary a peep from the dev side.

Of course there's going to be a million threads and a bunch of disjointed arguments when we are left in the dark.

 

I had the exact same thought. Glad to see I'm not the only one.


I could not test in the last round and have not had a chance to read all of the articles so if I am misunderstanding, please feel free to correct me.

My only thought is that with using a map to travel it makes bumping into the wandering traveler(s) (Other players) a little more difficult. Everyone will instantaneously be traveling back and forth across a map without seeing or meeting one another. Basically eliminating random encounters with other players while exploring the forests between towns for example.

I wouldn't mind the map being an alternative form of travel, perhaps from specific locations or with a delay that leaves a person vulnerable to monsters and/or other players while they initiate this form of travel but I would not want this to be the only form of travel from one area to another. I love the exploration and wandering around. Sometimes I just want to stumble through the trees and swamps for a couple of hours looking for the best route to the next town while discovering all the hidden treasures and locations along the way.

 

That's how I feel, too. But with the paper map we have now you wouldn't stumble through trees but through cut out paper. That is the problem I have with the map. It doesn't give the illusion of wandering around in a living world. It's a paper map and it will stay a paper map even if they include some (paper) animations.

Maybe it would look good. But it would only look good for a map and not for a zoomed out world view in which you can explore the world or at least get the illusion of exploring a world.

 

Chiming in here as another who is not to keen on the overland map. If we can walk from hex to hex, with a seamless zoom in/out between 3rd person & overland, I will be happy.

Am OK with the paper design for an overland map as well... I just don't want the main mode of travel to be void of contact with other players or detract from the greater immersion of the game.

 

I just re-discovered this on the Kickstarter site:

Scene based encounters:
In a nod to Garriott's early RPG works, Shroud of the Avatar is split up into a high-level overland map and adventure scenes. Scenes are generally re-playable and can be experienced solo or with others.

Now where is this high-level overland map?

 

High level of what? It could be anything: high level of detail, high level of disappointment, high level above the sea...

Anyway, while I like the general idea of having an in-game paper map, I'd rather use the 3D overland map shown in the early videos for actual movement, and a separate non-navigable, static paper map which I can look at anytime (as long as I got it in my inventory) for reference. Maybe even add my notes on it (Ultima Underworld style).
But again, I'd rather use a 3D map for actual travel.

 

As the devs said that the scale in the old overland map didn't quite match and made for an "uncanny valley" effect... The indie-game Legends of Eisenwald uses a 3D overland map and the scale is not right, too. But does it look fake or strange? In the screenshot below you can see the player in the middle of the screen and yes, the scale is not right, but I think it looks gorgeous and atmospheric! I would love to wander around on such an overland map. And keep in mind that Legends of Eisenwald is developed by a very small indie-team with a very low budget.

 

I think that looks great and yeah the scale is not right, but it does not look weird to me at all. It actually looks fairly similar to what SOTA original overland map was.

 

Well, I have not been following this discussion, but I hope that the current world map is just a 'placeholder' for a better system.

 

Have you voted on the new map?

https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/poll-r5-updated-overland-map.10074/

 

yes and made my feelings quite clear.