You're losing PvP cause..

Discussion in 'PvP Gameplay' started by Antrax Artek, Jul 6, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Grave Dragon

    Grave Dragon Avatar

    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    3,116
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lost in the Nether.

    @Baron Drocis Fondorlatos

    Is the above what you want? I ask because even if Chris creates a counter to all skills, you wont have enough combat slots available to use them all, so there will always be builds you cant counter and youll never have one build that is viable against all others simultaniously.

    Thats by design.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs and antrax1990x like this.
  2. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    Agree again.

    Yes but what would be the usefulness of grinding exp and leveling skills in pvp? It will breaks the basics of all mmorpg
    There are other games like "Smite" and various moba if you want a ready to go character for pvping.
    Here your character's training is important as your mind training and this is one of the reasons cause people enjoying training themself and test everyday their progress versus other players.
    In my opinion the identical ultima online system fits like a charm here if well implemented.
    Off Topic: Oracle's PvP protection should be paid and not free. This can help cause there are really low number of pvp players right now, and the number seems to decrease every day.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs and Dhanas like this.
  3. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    5,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA EST

    The usefulness of grinding XP would be for PVE power. Guildwar had a similar system and it worked wonderfully.

    The beauty of my proposal is XP could be gained while PVPing and someone could quite literally level up while PVPing. New players would PVP, because the system would be balanced on level and gear. Literally could be a day 1 player and go PVP while leveling up. The PVP zone PVE would be balanced easier as everyone would be level 100 and at most 80 in any skill. PVE would still be forever progressing as promised.

    Frankly the current PVP system is PAY 2 WIN 100%. The PAY 2 WIN currency is TIME.

    Make people have to pay not to PVP with your Oracle PVP protection payment idea and the population in this game will drop to a handful (HORRIBLE IDEA). The PVP numbers are low because the majority don't PVP due to imbalances solved by my proposal. Most who do PVP currently don't like a fair fight they want to gank. Gankers get bored and leave when no one is there to gank.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs and Cordelayne like this.
  4. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    The fundamental design of the combat system is broken if you can't counter what people are attacking you with.

    It would be like playing rock, paper, scissors, flame thrower. What counters flame thrower? Nothing. Ok, well then why not just use flame thrower every time?

    Part of the reason it's hard to balance this system though is how it was designed at its core. I'm no longer trying to get that changed because I think we've moved way past the point where the developers have the appetite for that. Instead, what I'd like to see is that every skill and spell generally has a way to counter or at least reduce the effectiveness of every attack. That doesn't mean we have to have a 1 to 1 attack vs. counter, we can make some general purpose counters (like purify) that remove a whole slew of things. It's not ideal and not how I would've designed it, but it's probably the best we're going to do now.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs likes this.
  5. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    This is a bit off topic, and I agree with you that if the Oracle made people pay for PVP protection it would certainly increase the amount of PVP in the game (for the short term). The problem with this thinking however is that it would also increase the number of players that stopped logging into the game (long term). This is seen over and over again in just about every game that has non-consensual pvp as a default setting.

    The other part of this I want to mention is that just having "more people" doesn't result in better or more pvp over the long term either. UO had "all the people" at one point, but lost huge portions of people to games like EQ that provided pvp free environments. Which is a huge problem for SOTA in the sense that we have single player, friends, and even non-pvp multiplayer modes where at any given point players can avoid pvp (and that's what they will do if pvp is not enjoyable). So even as we get more people into this game, I do not expect that to "fix" pvp over any length of time. Instead, I expect players to learn that when they are leveling it's kind of stupid to be flagged for pvp, and when they are looking for pvp it will be difficult to find other players that are not leveling in some other mode of play. :)
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs likes this.
  6. Casey McCormick

    Casey McCormick Avatar

    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Agreed. This is the solution SOTA needs to implement to level the playing field for everyone.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs and Cordelayne like this.
  7. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    5,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA EST
    Let me summarize SOTA pvp in a picture from 1991. Then explain the significance.

    [​IMG]


    I've been playing MMOs with PVP since before 1991. Eventually I had hoped everyone would learn the problem with MMO PVP and demand the system be fixed. Repeat after me, you can't have MMO PVP if the system isn't balanced. If the combatants are not relatively equal the unequal side will quit playing (Reference the picture).

    My ego doesn't need boosted running around ganking people I vastly out level and out gear. I much prefer a fair fight. I love losing to superior tactics and strategy. Because after conducting an after action report, I will learn from the experience and probably win the next battle.

    When most gamers are fighting someone with better gear and higher levels they won't stick around. They will say, hey why should I spend 100s of hours a week to keep up with someone who has nothing better to do? Those people with 100's of hours per week will likely play more competitive games too as they will get tired of a game not focused on PVP.

    PVP in SOTA is drastically flawed. That is why so few participate. You can't balance an equation when one side of the equation depends upon time spent grinding. Remove the time demand and then we can balance PVP and develop a system fun for all.
     
    Numa, MrBlight, Ahuaeynjgkxs and 2 others like this.
  8. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    Ok now i understand, all of you want another type of game, you want a moba or "Mount and blades" like game.
    The question is, why the hell are you playing Shroud of The Avatar (Action MMORPG) if you already know the developers are the same of Ultima Online?
    In Ultima Online there wasn't dumb things in pvp zones like same level, same level skills, 3 items loots instead of full loot etc.
    I really cannot understand why for your mind decks building, skills choosing, rolls and avoids, cc are not considered skill-based variables.


    I read someone saying it's p2w? Maybe you don't know the meaning of this word lol
    Pay-to-win games: that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.(http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win)

    First of all, in this game the equip is secondary back to more importants variables. Here you cannot pay a dollars to portalarium for improve your character's skills power, equipments or igg.
     
  9. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Agree. I got similar experiences after played nearly any pvp MMO since UO.

    I won't talk about the balance stuff (2-3 years topic discussion in this forum) but the current pvper numbers in sota is the best example of a broken system. With current system you will end up only with hardcore players (10% of the pop? or less in sota).

    As an old and big supporter of this game, I also like to talk about the bad things. The game is awesome but the pvp is far from being balanced or competitive.
     
    Numa and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  10. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    Maybe you don't like mmorpg too much?
    Remember none is perfect, and there will never be a perfectly balanced mmorpg as the base of them exists in the level system.
    Another thing, MMO and MMORPG are different guys.
    MMORPG are 99% levels based (Like UO)
    MMO are not always level based (Like Dayz)
     
  11. Ravicus Domdred

    Ravicus Domdred Avatar

    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    9,037
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Location:
    Get In MY BELLY!
    Well I would say this is not an mmorpg. I would also say that many of us are still here because of the hope things might change. We have seen major changes in the combat in the past. We might be waiting to see the 2 year roadmap before we completly leave the game.
     
    MrBlight, Ahuaeynjgkxs and Cordelayne like this.
  12. Rada Torment

    Rada Torment Community Ambassador (ES)

    Messages:
    1,473
    Likes Received:
    4,645
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Playing MMOs since 1998, and playing sota for 3 years now. I would say, honestly, I like these kind of games :D

    UO, Darkfall Online and EVE Online are the three games where I spent more years playing. All of them are full-loot and with open-pvp 24/7.
     
    Dreadnought and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  13. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    I can understand, i'm coming from mortal online :D

    Ohh, this is a perfect comparison to explain:

    Mortal Online vs Mount And Blade

    Mortal/Darkfall are Mmorpgs
    M&B is a Mmo

    In my opinion if someone don't like levels and skill's progression have to play M&B/Chivalry/Smite and not Mortal/Darkfall/Sota
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  14. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    One of the reasons I like the idea of NPC Guards so much was that at least in the towns where they would be, they would lower the risk of being ganked or attacked by a higher level player. If you wanted to go outside of where the guards were, you would be more at risk, but while in town you'd have some assurance that you'd get a more fair fight, since most players wouldn't want to incur the wrath of the guards, and the ones that did would give you more of an advantage. But yesterday during the telethon Starr said that wasn't going to happen, no NPC Guards. So now I'm thinking perhaps Guard Towers that just blast anyone that steps out of line. :)

    I think the level grind model is here to stay, so we're going to have to think within that context. I don't think it's going to be helpful to say, let's just make everyone equal by default because that's not going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
    Ahuaeynjgkxs, Dhanas and antrax1990x like this.
  15. Greyfox

    Greyfox Avatar

    Messages:
    1,680
    Likes Received:
    5,942
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA EST
    Strange things that would NEVER happen suddenly become possible as MMO populations dwindle.

    If in six months 100,000 new people joined SOTA. Most of the new still would NOT PVP because the system would be extremely unbalanced with current high levels continuing to dominate and continuing to level.

    So the latest attempt is diminishing returns for higher levels to balance PVP. The diminished returns just pisses off everyone as you never really progress yet you can't stop because someone does have a slightly higher percentage than you. Even if mathematically the number difference is INSIGNIFICANT you still have to grind to keep up.

    If the lower level less geared person losses they will blame gear and level. If the higher level/geared person loses they will blame balance problems. Insanity!

    Separate PVP balance from PVE. Nothing else will work. Other games have tried and failed. Learn from the history or repeat the same failures with similar results.
     
  16. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh I agree with you in large part. I think you have an excellent understanding of what this system is and isn't.

    I'm simply stating that the developers seem to enjoy the idea that if you play more, you're more powerful. I can't tell if that's based on personal experience in EQ and WoW, or if it just fits into their business model. But I also think that trying to make everyone equal power may not be the only path to a better system. I understand you're advocating for same everything, but there are flaws in that approach too. Namely, that this would no longer be a progression based RPG.
     
  17. Antrax Artek

    Antrax Artek Avatar

    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Viborg
    And seems legit! If not , why should I lose my time?
     
  18. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

    Messages:
    3,333
    Likes Received:
    11,010
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Wait a minute, you're telling me that all you pvp folks DON'T get xp from battling each other? That's ludicrous! I only PvE so I have no idea on these things, but if that's the case PvP DEFINITELY needs some love! Have they discussed getting xp from PvP fighting? I used to PvP in WoW because the xp was amazing. That isn't the case here with the 10% bonus? Is that because the bonus only applies to being flagged and gaining xp in multiplayer PvE?
     
    Ancev and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  19. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't think you should, or will.

    But the fatal flaw of that system is that it's usually not competitive during the fight. I never played WOW, but I had friends that were on the top ten pvp leader board. They spent all their time killing people that probably couldn't fight back because of the difference in levels. Then one day some guy that had like 100 levels more than anyone else showed up and killed them. How unfair it was, they said. How horrible it was, they told me. Because this guy was higher level than anyone and could fly around the map, it made it impossible for them to beat him. But that's what the whole system is like, there can only be one person that is "the best". It's a dumb model.

    The same thing has been happening for years before WOW was even invented though. Back when I played Gemstone III there was some dude that was like 1000 levels higher than anyone else because he'd been playing every day for like 20 years (prior to when the game was even a commercial product). He could one shot kill anyone in the game. It was disgusting.
     
    Numa and Ahuaeynjgkxs like this.
  20. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

    Messages:
    18,188
    Likes Received:
    35,440
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    If they gave pvp XP, that would be exploitable.

    You'd just kill farm another account over and over for XP. In wow, they didn't have open world pvp, right? Or if they did it was faction based. It was arenas, so I think that was easier to monitor and control.
     
    Ahuaeynjgkxs, Dhanas and Cordelayne like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.