Player made dungeons vrs portalarium

I am wondering how player made dungeons will fair vrs the portal ones, will my dungeon be compedetive vrs say areas like UT? With UT being the place thats pulling everyone to it this is worrysome.

I think the system might be on more even ground if they were on the same footing level as payouts go. Why do my copy of the rise per say if the rewards are two tiers lower than portals rise.

Chris already said that the rooms would be copied to prevent cheating so as I understand it many of our rooms will be the same.

@Chris @DarkStarr

 

The dungeon system will fail if these two things are not present:
1. They must be rewarding relative to all other content
2. They must be capable of being made unique
I hope they have those guidelines in mind; otherwise I suspect it will become a really neat but largely unused feature.

 

They need to figure out a solution to these issues. As well as create rare and expiring rooms and mobs.

For these reasons player made dungeons need to be as good or better than the portal made ones!

 

Sort of related: does anyone know where I can find a list of current dungeons? I used to enjoy picking one of the 'themes' on any given day and going for it, depending on the mood.

 

I think there is only one, Upper Tears.

 

Since announced i have been thinking a lot about the design. The thing is, these are PLAYER Dungeons. Yes, the rewards are going to be less then game provided spaces but there are many ways to offset that.

• Dungeon Owners Offset the difference. I mean, its your dungeon, your quests... Sure they are giving something but you need to as well - its kind of the point. That being said, there needs to be a mechanic in place to allow rapid refill of said difference. Perhaps a container at the entrance (or somewhere) accessible by permissions that can be used to refill chests, add to monster loot, etc. You can't be running thru the dungeon every day refilling loot chests.
• By virtue of it being a dungeon, and made by players who will certainly go for most bang for your buck... you are going to be getting room after room of monsters to fight. So while the XP/Loot might be lower then the outside world, you are going to get a volume bonus most likely of consistent fighting moreso then the pre-built zones.
• Dungeon Linking - by allowing teleportation between player dungeons (alluded to but not promised for sure), players can create amazingly fluid fighting spaces if they take their time and use good building skills. That is where the rating system will really shine. Showing where the good ones are.
• Eventual Entrance Fees. I think it is inevitable that eventually the dungeon spaces might get so good, with great player made loot that people will want to charge for entrance. Why not if they are providing a good adventure space and loot. HOWEVER again this rely's on a good rating system. Players need to trust they are not getting ripped off. If they know that, the system can work.

It is going to take a while, and I mean a while... For this Dungeon System and the players using it, to become balanced. There is a knack to getting good pacing and good story and good adventure all wrapped up. Anyone who was a beginner Dungeon Master can attest to wanting to create that ultimate space, and be tempted to place the best monsters, biggest loot, greatest traps. That does not always end well and the best does not always mean the most fun. It will take practice, and time and trial and error.

In the end, I think as long as we have the tools to stock the dungeons in a timely manner and players can rate them (other then just in THAT town, it needs to be wider), I believe the shortcomings of the lessened XP/loot can be offset successfully.

 

Just chaining encounter rooms together with little thought, or added loot is not going pull people successfully from the top tier zones. Players are going to come to your dungeon for what they can't get in the game world fighting per-stocked zones. Its going to be up to you to determine what that is.

This is about sandboxing, not making the best Min-Max place to go in the game. They can't give you that power. It is way too exploitable.

 

What if you got paid for it? Every player pays a COTO to get a chance at your fortune? Some win, most don't. Like Vegas

 

I think the advantage of a player made dungeon is the fact that the owner can change it as often as they want... meaning if they are willing to do so it can be a new experience on a weekly or monthly basis. Port created dungeons sort of remain constant indefinitely (unless Atos feels the need to nerf it. )

Also, player dungeons can have more of a "quest" feel to them by hiding keys in hidden chests, adding puzzles to solve, etc. into them. From what I've seen from other quests this community has made so far without dungeons that can result in a climactic battle and or treasure... I can only imagine how fun these will be compared to the static dungeons Port has created.

I'm really looking forward to both making my own and trying what others come up with.

Sure, the mob battles will be 2 tiers below Ports versions, but players can customize the loot and prizes and the good ones will make sure it's better than 14 obsidian chips and a rusty spoon.

 

Yea I agree with that but if all high end dungeons and areas like ut are 2x 4x more rewarding and player dungeon owners have to suppliment loot and do other stuff including advertising, buying pieces and and swaping dungeons I wonder if peoples investment will amount to much regular traffic.

Im not paying a coto to go in anyones dungeon with the exception on ut, thats break even on 15 mins.

 

I think being able to charge a fee is a great way to encourage people to build awesome dungeons!

Maybe if an owner reaches and/or maintains a certain rating level, it unlocks the ability to charge a fee at the entrance?

If the dungeon is good, players will rate it high and want to return. If the dungeon maintains a good rating, the owner will be able to profit and be encouraged to restock loot and keep upgrading it.

Sounds like a good way to promote and grow the system.

 

Im ok with all that but they do need to be good vrs the portal ones xp wise and loot wise as noted in my OP.

TO EVERYONE: if your willing to pay cotos to enter your welcome to come in my dungeons if your not your STILL welcome!

 

I will put my two cents in. There are already mechanics that were discussed that will allow reward for those that offer a reward. It may not be clear to all on how to get payment for your creativity. I will be publishing a book in game to share what I know on how to monetize your dungeons. (the book is not going to be how..)

The quest system as well some of the new loot tools will allow you to fill your dungeon up with loot you make or put into the instances. Pending a few more details and actually seeing the finalized options is all that is stopping me currently from writing the book mentioned above.

I have great plans for many dungeons which I have been planning the lore, and concepts for 2 years as some of you know. I look forward to having all of this and expect to see a lot of fantastic creations.

I am also very happy that they choose to use portals as the way to enter as this will eliminate empty instances from the view of the world.

 

I respectfully disagree with you. Not entirely, but to a degree... While the majority of the player base will prefer a greater XP rate than these may provide, there is still a large population of players who will be more intrigued by the creativity of what other players create over the grind of attenuating in UT.

Yes, I agree the best XP spots like UT will still prevail and be the main draw in terms of "dungeons" because that XP crack is a hard habit to break. But I imagine that if these player made dungeons are fun enough or creative enough to make people try to use their brain to "complete" them, they will draw a decent enough crowd to be viable. Sometimes just figuring out a puzzle is reward enough for people who like the challenge. Especially if the solution requires team work, planning, trial-and-error type of stuff in lieu of a simple brute force AOE XP grind that gets boring after a few minutes.

Basically, I'm saying that people won't just choose one or the other. This isn't meant to be a replacement of the Port made dungeons. Players will do their grinding until they get bored enough to want something more challenging. That's when they will go looking for something new like these player made dungeons. Not everyone is here to Min/Max, 24/7. If some of these have a chance to be new and exciting, people will give it a shot occasionally just to mix it up.

And, since loot can be controlled by the creator (not from the spawns themselves, but in terms of a treasure chest at the end of the dungeon if the player can get past them) then the end result could make it worthwhile. For instance, if someone guaranteed there would at least be an Artifact or some COTO's for every completion, along with some other goodies, then it would be a nice encounter for a small group to do.

 

Really its hard to debate all this(not enough info), im only asking that they are compedetive ut for example is ubar xp and excellent gold, I might be interested in seeing ur dungeon but if its the same risk of decay for less loot and lower xp and on top all that I have to pay you for the privledge then ill pass.

I think we need more info on thier plans to really discuss it much, the player pop is extremly low atm and im pretty sure most of us are the ones making the dungeons.

 

one thing that will help is if we get configurable trap, puzzle, and platform rooms that are actually a danger to players.

 

What we need to do is take a second to look at the system from a designer standpoint in order to see the bigger picture.

Creating a dungeon building system at 100% yield (like existing zones) with no restrictions on payout will eventually (probably very quickly) break the economy much worse then it already is. By unlocking the floodgates to endless game resources (think of every monster like resource node), you will create a huge imbalance in an already fragile economy. For every monster node, putting NEWLY CREATED resources in the game, you need to have ways to take it back OUT of the game. There needs to be more money sinks that delete game resources. Otherwise we will have so much of everything, nothing will be worth anything.

Now, moving resources from player to player, that is not NEW resources. Its shuffling current resources, that is why it makes a perfect substitution to the low yield on player dungeon encounters and why they are looking at us to supplement that yield in our own sandbox dungeons. Plus, lets face it, there comes a point when we have all we need and it just becomes hording.

But why would a player WILLINGLY give aware their stuff to fund a dungeon... either they have too much stuff, or they want the dungeon to be financially profitable in SOME way. Maybe COTO, Gold, or something else - players are crafty and will find a way.

Another issue:

If you let a guild fund a dungeon that has 1 dragon room after the next with virtually no respawn waiting time because you have 7 dragon rooms in a circle, no travel, no delay, you are going to bust the economy. How about Rise Mage rooms? 4 in a row... No waiting on re-spawns... endless loot and XP? No Danger, no risk other then the fights.

This is the crux of the problem, you know that given the chance, a player will create the most Min/Max space they can. This is not how a developer makes a fair and balanced game. Their zones have traps, quests, locked gates, other sorts of hazards/delays. The question is, How do we keep the dungeon building in check?

Maybe for every high level encounter room you need to place x amount of hazards or traps before getting the green light to place another one. But here's the rub, how can you be sure the traps are real and no placed in a hall, in a row, far from the content being placed (and no danger to the player)? That could end up a VERY complex system. Its much safer and less complicated to lower the yield and allow the players to supplement their sandbox dungeon.

Even if it was a perfect world and they had a mathematical way to weigh the content of a player dungeon by tier so that the above scenarios can not be made (and I do believe they will....eventually...and that is when the yield gap can become much closer to live content) - we're talking about unleashing tons of new monster nodes into the game all at once. Tons of Game Created Assets. There has to be a sense of balance and that is why the yield restriction has got to be there when they launch and why player dungeons will need to supplement loot AND game play AND interest in order to make for an interesting adventure space.

There are ways to make this successful and make the dungeons fun and exciting. Its going to take work on the players part to make that happen. However thinking that we are going to get fantastic, 100% yield encounters rivaling existing zones just by snapping rooms together... with no player additives... I just don't see that happening. I'm actually surprised they were able to give us encounters at all without it all being PvP like they initially thought.

I really do see the point, and issue with reduced yield but there needs to be some give and take. That is the make or break point of this new system. How can they be profitable to both the player creater and the player adventurer. I don't expect it to be there on day 1. it will take time.

 

The thing I worry about is well ill put it in a difrent example.

If Phils coto exchange opened a shop in bladewyke and portal also opened a coto exchange in bladewyke but they offered 2 for 1 coto's. Phils coto shop would not recieve much buisness.

Idk how all this plays out in the end no one does, im willing to take a wait and see approach im just suggesting that this is in consideration.

 

Maybe with a little time and work, you can go through a dungeon to find... a Casino with minigames at the end ;-)

Hey it could draw in the players. Never know. Just thinking what crazy things we can do. Looking forward to more details as they become available.

 

I hope that these player made dungeons turn out well, but I think it would be hard to make them very rewarding (loot wise) without people figuring out ways to abuse them.